so does my hatred towards Karl Malone make me an idiot, or a homey bigot? who's all for helping me water down the word "bigot" so Kagy has no more alternative words to "racism" and finally must concede to agree? (hey BK, you know I'm serious on this topic, but also having enjoying talking with you about it. sorry for doing a lesdyxic thing to your initials on the last post.)
Shanna, Rocketman95, DEANBCURTIS, JuanValdez (maybe)... there are probably others lining up too. Maybe Whoopity Dooper... er, no, guess not. Maybe hetero doxy... er, no again. Seriously, though, you can't water down the word bigot. If you hate Karl Malone, then yeah, technically you're an anti-Malone bigot. You hate a racial group (but do not think you're genetically superior), you're a bigot. I don't see the conundrum here except that maybe we've elevated the word racism to such an exalted position in our lexicon that its merit as a political weapon cannot be allowed to be challenged. Why would we want to change its meaning now? Damn, then we'd have to find something substantial to criticize the right about, instead of just calling em racists. ------------------ You bring the bullets, I'll bring the wine.
I don't mean to interupt the flow of this conversation, but I have a few inane questions which you are welcomed to answer or ignore. HP, where have you been? 1,999 posts in about 2 and a half days and then you stop completely? BK, how did I get singled out without even saying anything in this thread? Is it about all the Commie talk in the hangout? ------------------ Rockets Draft Obligations Summary http://www.gaffordstudios.cjb.net/
BK, you can't pick & choose which definitions you want to use just to win this argument. (let's see how a copy & paste gets formatted here (from merriam webster)) Main Entry: rac·ism Pronunciation: 'rA-"si-z&m also -"shi- Function: noun Date: 1936 1 : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race 2 : racial prejudice or discrimination - rac·ist /-sist also -shist/ noun or adjective Both of these definitions fit the criteria of being labelled a racist. There doesn't need to be any watering down. Examples: If I hate black people because I believe each constituent in this group, listens to rap music... then I'm making a preconceived notion about a race (and yadda yadda yadda I don't like rap music), and therefore I'm a racist. If my uncle (and he does argue this) insists on locking the door at a rest stop when he sees a black man approaching his car then he's a racist and an idiot. The fact that he saw some statistic about black males/violence comforts him in making a judgement against a group, but he is still a racist. ------------------ The ClutchCity 500. [This message has been edited by Achebe (edited July 19, 2000).]
The racial card (bigotry, predjudice, whatever) is often used as a weapon though. For instance, if a person sees Quanel X (and I apologize if I mis-spelled his name) at a rally and accuses him of being a nut, the person runs the risk of being called racist. So, people, press and others, are afraid to call him a nut, even if he's waving a loaded AK-47 around in public. Perhaps your uncle is 'predjudiced' against young people, or people dressed a certain way, or avoids strangers walking toward him at rest-stops. That doesn't necessarily make him a racist. IMHO -- There's a difference between treating people in a racial manner, and taking appropriate steps to ensure your safety, in a potentially dangerous environment. ---------------- I vote we just accept words in context, and avoid lenthy discussions on deffinitions. ------------------ Stay Cool... [This message has been edited by dc sports (edited July 19, 2000).]
dc: no, I tried to give him the benefit of the doubt and his explicit argument was in no uncertain terms that: if a black man were to approach his car then he would lock the door. Considering that the premise involves the race of the individual, his preconceived notion as to what it is to be a member of the black race makes him a racist. ------------------ The ClutchCity 500.
BK, I totally overlooked this before: I'm not sure I see your point. Are you suggesting that there is a 'justifiable' bigotry towards blacks that the right espouses that doesn't fall into 'racism'? The word substantial here confuses me. Is there some reason that you're reticent to acknowledge the second definition of racism because it will force you to concede that there's an element of conservatism that is racist? What is this conservative view that you find racist... I mean bigoted? ------------------ The ClutchCity 500.
Hey juanvaldez....how's the coffee. I've been drinking huge amounts while working towards release of a version 1 thingy. I'll come up for air when I get my season tickets I'm sure. But, I still read everyday. BK, Achebe, dc sports. Let me stop the semantic debate. I'd rather get back to why I personally use the word. If I keep it personal about me, would you promise not to make a semantic argument again, because we are going no where. Let me tell you why I really feel people should use the would racism. Because it brings passion out of people. That is important. Bigotry is just too weak for that for me. I prefer the word racism when talking of racial bigotry, because it creates more expansive conversations like this one, than you will get when using bigotry. This is because the culture attaches so much passion to the word, and to discover that passion from each race, we must talk of racism. Let me start: My name is heypartner, and I am a racist. I discriminate many thoughts and feelings on skin color. Most are on the positive side (like, my preference for a black bridge partner over a white one), some of negative (like, favoring the white city worker customer service over the black woman, cause my experience is racist city service is rampid). There is a lot I can't control about the instant feelings that are ingrained, but I believe I have it in me to fully eliminate those feelings if it were not for one thing: NOBODY WILL TALK ABOUT IT WITH ME!!!! Nobody will say they have bigoted moments, or prejudiced ones. Don't be afraid to say it. Because we are nutured by the culture to think in racial terms. We cannot escape it, especially if we don't talk about it. I actually feel it is healthy for someone to say, "I hate all black people," or "White people are assholes," without being immediately exiled from society. They obviously have some passion behind those statements that need to come out. Let it and you might learn something yourself. Before someone tells me that I can't be a racist or bigot unless I clump together all people of a given group, it is not that simple. I might not stand in a black man's line at traffic court, but later meet him and play bridge with that guy. I made a prejudiced choice against that person at traffic court based purely on skin color. If you think that is a minor instance, let me say something worse. As much as I love basketball, I constantly struggle with my natural tendency to believe black college players who are 3 point shooting, high-flying dunkers are incapable of learning a role in a motion offense. They will either show lack of court vision, interest, or just pure lack of being able to learn complicated group dances. This is no different than my unfair, first impression take on Mihm can't play NBA center cause white guys rarely pan out as good centers. If you still say I'm not showing bigotry or racism since I'm hard on both races, well those two comments above would have got every NBA coach in the league fired within a week. If you say, that is the problem, political correctness is stiffling the discussions, I say that stems from unwillingness to have such discussions in the first place. So, you may not think I'm a racist. But it doesn't matter. I want to talk about it. I want all of us to talk about. One big huge world-wide group therapy session or something silly like that. Call me a racist and I'll call you one, then we hug. no, not really. Point being, policital correctness fear of the conversation and this BK-style semantics (further exacerbating the problem of avoidance by justifying not using a word that harbors such passion) show symptoms of denial. BK, I'm not saying you exhibit avoidance of these issues in anyway. I know you are expressing the same feeling that I am, just differently. I am just saying your fun semantics argument can be misused by others who ARE in denial that there is any problem at all. I do have racial prejudices in me. Many of us were nutured that way. Let's talk about it, and get on to some learning! Who is going to take the plunge with me? Not necessarily here, but throughout your life.
HeyPartner, Okay, you're a racist, congratulations. Don't let the semantics debate annoy you. We have to agree to abide by the same language before we can have a meaningful discussion. Plus, it just became interesting, BK insinuated that his motive for ignoring one of the definitions of racism lies in his belief that conservatism is inherently racist (bigoted). I tend to disagree (practice not principle), but BK is a William F. Buckley sort of conservative (the only respectable kind, IMO) so I am curious to see what he means/meant by his former post. p.s. if it makes you feel any better my 'Bob Jones' side of the family is all mild to hot on the racism scale. Luckily I was raised by my black nanny that worked for my great-grandmother on my dad's side (Minnie Duckett, RIP), so my impulse is purely Oedipal when I see a black woman. Also being from the south, I probably become a silly 'gabbylizard' to breach the gap in any conversational interaction. Road to recovery: Tell yourself all athletes rely on their physical power, rather than their intellect early on in training. Go play bball with an 8 year old (preferably one w/o skills) and bang up on him, and slap his ball away. Keep yelling "Mihm" in a low demonic voice. Overcompensate in all customer-service interactions. For a month, find yourself in exclusively black-white interactions in any public situations. Be bubbly and happy irregardless of the other individual's temperament. After a month, quit forcing the issue and act like a normal person in all of your interactions. Was there truly any difference in interacting with people? ------------------ The ClutchCity 500.
Naw, just figured you might enjoy piling on. ------------------ You bring the bullets, I'll bring the wine.
achebe, that post was pretty patronizing. But we are at least out of the semantics debate now. congratulations! First rule of advice is: don't tell someone how to recover. Besides, my life is not the point. I am asking for expression within yourself, Achebe. Please don't respond in a way that stereotypes my last post as something you can fix with words...because you are wrong. Your response to me is yet another of a long line of responses that confirms why racism talks are so difficult. When I admit that I have race-based prejudices, all I ever get from people is responses of denial and advice, like they have one of the most difficult problems in our culture solved all by themselves. congratulations! tell me more! give me your inner truth, or spare me you dry didacticism. Hey Jeff, I have a feeling I am not going to let this thread die out of respect for your comments that "only radical action can make change."
Achebe, Oh boy. This is getting away from me. Sorry for being short with you Achebe. I was trying to tack something onto the semantics debate by explaining that I feel the word racism and prejudice is within everyone. We can't deny it. And it is best not to. My main point is it is better to say "I am a racist" like I did than it is to say "Racism is dead" like BK and Space Ghost, and call it bigotry. I don't feel I have a problem at all with race. I am making a point that although I have had many opportunities to interact, play, fight, love, hate and live with people of other races and actually prefer to socialize with other races over my own, I still have prejudices. The human race is racially divided and that creates racial bigotry in all of us. How can having prejudices in this environment be a problem. Racism exists, let's talk about the levels of it. I generally only hear people talk about that "other" person who has prejudices. And, like I did above, when I offer my own prejudices to spur a conversation, all I ever get is advice or comments about how those really aren't prejudices. Achebe: Would you agree with me that more talk on a hot subject throughout society (leaders, neighbors, family) is always a good thing? My crusade is to explain how only talking about the extremes (I never prejudice...I always do) creates a great divide. Let's talk about the whole spectrum of racial prejudices. I don't profess to know where that will lead, but is can't be a bad thing.
whoooaaa Heypartner ... I never said it was 'dead'. You misinterpreted when i said 'ridicules'. I was implying it was sad when a majority (whites) have to have a group to protect their rights. What im saying is racism, bigotry or whatever you prefer to call it, is not at an individual level. I just think it's sad when we have laws that demand ethical diversety. If i was a boss, i would want the best fit person, not have to fill a quota of racial percecetages. Same thing with school, the person who scores the best should get accept, not an X% of whites, blacks, and what not. That is just sad and ridicules!!! Jeff ... i feel all the supposed 'racial' crimes should be kept quit because all it does is incite more 'racism'. In the rodney king incident, (which there was nothing racial about that) what did it accomplish by letting the media see that video tape? The Jasper incident ... created more discontent. All you heard about was the KKK and Black Panthers. You don't fight racism by pointing fingers. You educate. ------------------
HeyPartner, I'm not sure that I personally know what it is that you want to hear. Besides, earlier I was speaking from within. If I confuse a female high school student with a 24 year old, I do not wallow and revel in it... I get grossed out and explain it away. What should I do... start dating female high school students (I'm 27) as an acknowledgement/salute to the confusion? What is it that you want to do with your racist tendencies other than control and get past them? Did you go to public schools in Texas? Have you not had the opportunity to interact with people of other cultures in the past? I'm not trying to be patronizing, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from. During my formative years I was raised by a black woman, the same woman that had taken care of my father and his brothers, and his mother and her siblings too. She was a saint. I went to public schools, yet was in a challenge program whose membership was more or less static for 10 years -- 35 kids, 5 of which were black. All throughout growing up, if I had a misunderstanding of a friend or worse, a negative impulse... I controlled it and convinced myself of the impulse's absurdity. Keep in mind that I grew up in the guilt-ridden Bible Belt, so what I'm suggesting may be considered suppression. <HR> My last negative experience with an African American was as follows: I was on my doorstep my sophomore year in college at 2:30 a.m., incidentally it was each student's first apartment, and we had elected to save money by living a good bike distance away from the college in a poorer neighborhood. I walked a girl home from a show and then went to my place... without my keys. I thought that my roommates were upstairs asleep (they were enjoying yummy hash browns at Waffle House), so I kept buzzing away. Two people rounded the corner. The first man walked down next to a car in front of me and asked for a cigarette. The second man was oddly close in tow. I cast my hands and started to say "I don't smoke", when the second man put his hand on my shoulder, turned me to the side and opened a silly cardboard box cutter behind my back. I pushed the guy away (he was probably 40 and inebriated) and started to jog off, all the while asking why are you doing this to me? I ran back to some friends' house that were keeping the band and having a bit of a get together. I was comforted by a female friend that night. So, even in adversity I came out ahead. When I think back on this experience, I recognize that these individuals' actions were those of two drunk men in a poor neighborhood. I'm sure some psychologist would want me to say the *n* word 3 times and start crying, but that seems pretty silly to me. ------------------ The ClutchCity 500.
Achebe, I said: What I mean by that is that the word 'racism' carries a powerful cachet to most people. It's one of the ugliest words in the English language, and anyone who is accused of it instantly loses credibility. 'Racism' carries weight that 'bigotry' or 'prejudice' do not. That weight is an extremely valuable weapon to the left, politically speaking, because it allows them to demonize their political opponents permanently. Once someone is castigated publicly as a racist, they're going to have to start from that point in every debate, every interview, and every Q&A they ever attend. Should I consider voting for a Republican? I don't know, I heard they were racists. The tactic is so successful that the word racism has been perverted from its original meaning. It's been inappropriately broadened so as to increase the frequency with which it can be used. And that's why I'd like to see the definition tightened-- so people with whom I disagree politically cannot incorrectly use that word to strike a false emotional chord with voters. ------------------ You bring the bullets, I'll bring the wine.
Kagy, it's no different than the conservative right calling liberals communists just to scare people. Remember the McCarthy era? However, I do agree with you on this one, even though I don't think you had to bring politics into it. Racism isn't a word to be thrown around lightly. I'm a liberal who believes that any actions against anybody for the color of their skin is racist, and all my liberal friends, which are very numerous, feel exactly the same way, black and white (and others!). The difference is that whites as a group have never been discriminated against in any way. So when one racial incident gets much more publicized than another, maybe because of race, white people get their panties all in a wad, all the while telling others to get over it. Space Ghost, so instead of reporting racism, we should just leave it alone? I was one of those who thought we lived in a country where the Jasper incident would never happen again. I'm glad it was reported, because I know not to be so naive anymore. ------------------ Going for the Rolls Royce! visit www.swirve.com
I don't remember it per se, because I'm your age. But I agree with you. ------------------ You bring the bullets, I'll bring the wine.
My belief is: you can try to tighten the use of the word, but you will be successfull only in a semantics debate. While I believe BK is correct in that if we could wave a magic wand and get everyone to quit using powerful words incorrectly, we would be a better world. But will that happen? I believe what is more realistic is to have more tolerance in the use of the word. Since the word is used at all levels, don't allow it to be used in only two extremes; that is, I am a racist (no racism), or I am not a racist (full racism). Address the spectrum of racial bigotry, and only then will the word be used properly, because we will surround it with adjectives. If I were a politician and someone said I made a racial slur, I would hope some day we would all be more mature in our use of the word to allow me to say, "Yes, some may interpret it that way, but here is why my comment is actually positive." The word is going to be used; the best we can do is attempt to understand all its uses. Individuals use it many different ways. It has several functions. I'll say it again: If beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so is racism.
