Three points/questions: Point #1: How many years was slavery legal under the U.S. flag? How many years was slavery legal under the Confederate flag? NOW, if I have my numbers correct..... lemme see.... add 2, carry the one.... WHY and HOW can you say that the U.S. flag should be atop a state capital, but not the Confederate flag? That I do not get. If your whole basis for taking down the Confederate flag is slavery, which most who support the removal have stated, then why not remove the U.S. flag too? Is it not just as much, if not more, a symbol of slavery? For every single good thing anyone can say that the Stars and Stripes stands for, I can find one if not more bad things it stands for. ------------------------------------- Point #2: What did the horrific and intensely chilling dragging death of the man in Texas have to do with the Confederate flag? Remember, I want you to try and rationalize that the Confederate flag and it's handful of years has had more of an effect on race relations than has the U.S. flag and it's hundreds of years of slavery, segregation, and inequalities. If there are two killers, and one has killed four people and the other has killed a hundred people. I can say that they are both evil. But, it's my opinion that the guy who was able to kill a hundred people has had a more adverse affect on society. -------------------------------------- Point #3 As I have said...... slavery is bad. It is inhumane, it is degrading, it is one of the worst things one human can do to another human. BUT, throughout history (I'll say it again) ALL societies have had slavery. Not all societies have performed countless insane experiments on helpless prisoners. Nor has every society rushed to exterminate a race, because they were losing a war and the enemy was approaching the camps where these prisoners were held. Millions of Jews and non-Jewish prisoners were killed in under a decade. I'm sure the number of slaves that died (including accidental deaths on the voyage over) equals if not surpasses the number of people that the Nazis killed, but it sure took a lot longer. -------------------------------------- I haven't decided whether I think the Confederate flag should or should not fly atop Southern state capitals. I'm still trying to make that decision. But, I have decided that if reason that it should be taken down it because of slavery, then I totally believe that the U.S. flag should come down too. I realize that will never happen, and maybe this is why I am having such a hard time figuring out if I think the Confederate flag should be taken down. I do, however, think that the Confederate flag should be allowed to fly at any Civil War battle sight, or any designated memorial to the soldiers that fought in the Civil War.
Lynus, there are plenty of US citizens with Mexican decent, probably as many as those with decent from Southern rebels. And if anyone would say for instance it would be OK for Dixie to be on state grounds but not a Mexican Flag, or Spanish Flag or British Flag, I think you have ZERO ground to stand on. If any Flags are to be allowed other than the US Flag or a State's own flag (my personal opinion is only these 2 should be on State ground), the only way to remain consistent in this argument is that you must allow any other flag the people want (e.g., Confederate Flag, Mexican National Flag--Texas was Mexican land for far longer than it was Confederate land, British flag, whatever else). If you open up the flood gates, you have to do it for all who want some other part of their heritage confirmed by a particular flag different than the Stars and Stripes. DREAMer, I said it doesn't matter whether slavery or lynchings are more frequent in history or not, or someone tried to quote a religious document to support them, these actions are not much different that the Nazi's acts, there are ALL evil and despicable. I don't see much difference in being dragged to death versus left to die do to exposure versus burned at the stake (Inquisition), these are all horrible (not that these are the worst actions of groups so inclined to do them) and I don’t see the point in saying which are more despicable. People have been cruel and dehumanized others throughout history, that is true. The Nazi's may have used different technology, but the acts have similar intent (dehumaning others) and outcomes (torture, death), thus they not different in my book. I don't think we should gloss over atrocities associated with slavery and racism in this country, whether conducted under the guise of States Rights or manifest destiny or rooting out communism, which all could apply to the symbols of Dixie or the US Flag respectively. However I have argued (above) I do not see the a core essence of the US Flag as restriction of freedom and dehumanization as I do for Dixie, even if people carry the US Flag have done some despicable things. Further, like it or not, the US Flag is our nation’s flag, and I don’t think Dixie or any other flag contradicting our nations sovereignty belongs on states grounds. The reason the recent dragging death is relevant is because it shows that the effects of slavery and the dehumanization of certain people are alive and well today in this country, and this was a very profound event reminding us past prejudices live on. If all the effects of these historical events were non-existent today, I'll bet there would be a whole lot less reactions to Dixie. The reason groups use the swastika or the Dixie flag for that matter is because they know intense emotions are associated with these symbols, if they didn’t provoke such reactions grounded in current experiences I doubt no one would give much a hoot nor would anyone pridefully carry them like a badge of honor. ------------------ "The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though."
How about the fact that we are still the U.S.A.? That's why our flag is still flying. The U.S.A. won the civil war. The U.S.A. evolved from a slave-owning nation to a nation where racism is frowned upon in most circles. We never know if the confederacy would have abolished slavery. With the numerous redneck racists I've met who enjoy putting that flag on the back of their truck, I'll form my own hypothesis and say that they wouldn't have. Just my opinion though. ------------------ Just because you're white and play basketball doesn't mean you're a Matt Bullard clone, despite idiotic accusations to the contrary. visit www.swirve.com
There was a country of states that formed a Union Some of the states decided to leave that union and form one of their own. The remaining states decided that they would not allow the states who wanted to leave to form their own union. The remaining states fought a war to re-Unite all of the states. The states who wanted to leave lost the war and were forced back into the union. They now fly the flag of the states that wanted to reunite them. So, why can't they keep the flag? The Union didn't want to "conquer" and "rule" the Confederacy. They simply wanted to reunite all of the states. They did reunite the states. So, why can't the southern states keep a symbol they hold dear? Like I said, the confederate flag itself does not have to be a symbol for hate, bigotry, and plain IDIOCY. But, sometimes it is. And, as I said before, (in most cases) a confederate flag on the top of a Southern state capital building is symbolizing many different things than is the confederate flag bumper sticker on the back of some KKK member's pick-up truck.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the state flag of Mississippi the Stars and Bars? Is someone going to insist that Mississippi, backwards as it may seem to be, must change their state flag? Perception often becomes reality, and I think a majority of Americans perceive the Rebel flag as a negative symbol. But does that negate the individual rights as guaranteed by the Constitution. Much as we may hate them, we can't shut down the KKK marches, the "Gay Pride" parades, the Louis Farakkan hate speeches, the PETA protestors, or the Miranda Warning. It's not a perfect world, let alone a perfect country, yet I'm proud to be an American, a Texan, and a Southerner - in that order. Incidently, there have been more people killed in the name of God than anything: the Crusades, the Moors, the Nazis, Islamic groups, and others. ------------------ "Who Wants To Be A Rocket?" - and probably a millionaire as well. The off-season will be interesting!
Alabama, Arkansas, Florida, Georgia, & Mississippi all have aspects of the Confederate flag in their state flag. You can make a case that the Tennesee state flag has aspects of the 3rd official confederate flag and the navy jack. [This message has been edited by DREAMer (edited July 13, 2000).]
Sir Scar, you've missed the point: Texas is not Mexican territory anymore. Mexico is still a separate, sovereign nation. That is why we do not fly their flag, the Spanish flag, French, or British. The Confederacy was made up of Americans. Not Mexicans, French, Spaniards, or Brits. This is not a debate on ancestry. If it was, we would have to include every flag of every country in the world. Like it or not, during the Civil War, the South was a separate, sovereign nation. Texas, for example, is the only state allowed to fly her flag as high as the US flag because Texas was a separate, sovereign nation at the time of annexation. The principle is the same. Another example: Cinco de Mayo is a huge holiday here in Texas among our citizens of Mexican decent. They're Mexicans, they love Mexico, but they obviously love Texas and America as well, otherwise they wouldn't be here. Texas won her independence from Mexico but most people (myself included) don't raise a fuss about them celebrating their heritage and regional/national pride. If we can't be proud of Dixie and her flag, and are forced to tear down monuments to the South, then Mexicans should not be allowed to openly celebratetheir heritage or Mexican holidays. You seem to have a Hollywood impression of the South during the Civil War. Allow me to restate one fact: 90% of all of the people who fought and died for the South did not own slaves. Go and (re)read my post about the religious aspect of slavery during that time. As to your rationalization about what the dragging death has to do with the Confederate flag, your point is flawed: Go to Oklahoma, find some Indians, and ask them what the good 'ol Stars and Stripes means to them. ------------------ I need a new signature. 302
That's why I think most of the Bible is a load of crap. Slavery is wrong, no matter what. ------------------ Just because you're white and play basketball doesn't mean you're a Matt Bullard clone, despite idiotic accusations to the contrary. visit www.swirve.com
At Arlinton National Cemetary, in the middle of the Confederate graveyard, there is a monument to both sides of the Civil War. It was given to the North by the South (by the Daughters of the Confederacy, I think) to celebrate the reunion of the country. On one side it features Confederate soldiers, with the Confederate Battle flag waving proudly; on the other side, it features Union soldiers, with the Union flag waving proudly. It represents the North and the South, different but united, standing together once again. Just a little FYI about the Confederate flag flying proudly with the Union flag, on government-owned property. ------------------ I need a new signature. 302
I would not deny Southerner's rights to celebrate Dixie. But I do not think it is a good idea to have a state-sanctioned flag threatening the nation's sovereignty on the court house--be it Confederate, Mexican National Flag, British, etc. The Confederate flag represented a breakup of our nation, a coup if you will, you can hardly get more threatening to sovereignty than that. How many other countries would allow state sponsoring of a “coup’s” symbol (none that I can think of), in fact it is a testament to the nation’s ideals (which I agree with) that such a symbol isn’t banned outright (I believe in Germany and France for instance certain symbols are illegal in essence-could be mistaken on this though). As for Dixie being within States Flags (state sponsoring, though not quite as heavy as just Dixie), perhaps it is time to change that. Texas land has been represented by the US Flag, Confederate Flag, Mexican Flag, its own Flag, maybe a couple of others too. I think it would be a complete cop out to say a it would be OK to have the Confederate Flag flying over the State house if the people so choose but not a Mexican flag. Here is a little bit of history about Texas Independence--plenty of Texas in the country at that time didn't want to break from Mexico . But they lost the war, and suffered the consequences (in fact many innocents were plundered after the new leaders took over), essentially the same deal for the Confederacy (yes I am sure many innocent Southerner’s were victims too). To imply the Confederate Flag is more legitimate symbol of pride for being an American for many Southerners than the Mexican Flag for many Mexican Americans (many who had lived in Texas for a longer of period of time than other peoples) or non-Mexican Americans who simply didn’t support Austin, Houston and the gang is completely biased in my view. To allow Americans who take pride in Dixie to be more legitmate than Americans who take pride in the Mexican Flag would just be wrong, wrong, and more wrong. I have no problem with individual citizens celebrating their heritage associated with any flag the want to (even if I find it personally distasteful), but the minute you place either on top of the state house you open a whole of can of worms I think we should be very careful about. If your going to let the people choose for each state what symbols are representing--even if they threaten our nations sovereignty, you have to be consistent with any symbol they choose or I think you have no ground to stand on. For another time, I am not saying all Southerners were bad during the civil war, or that all Dixie stands for is slavery and lynchings (although the spirit in many of the posts seems to underestimate many of the atrocities on African Americans in the South post war) or that the US Flag hasn't been associated with atrocities as well. But the Stars and Stripes is our Nations Flag , the Rebels, Mexican Nationals, British, etc., lost the darned wars against the United States of America. Further, the core the value of the US Flag, even if the symbol had been abused quite a lot, is freedom and liberty. But like the Constitution it is a living thing, and we always seek to find better ways to provide freedom and liberty. Now if we as a nation no longer agree it is a good symbol of our ideals now and want to have a new national symbol so be it, but we do that as a nation. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited July 13, 2000).]
