Just so ya'll know, I don't want to get into a name-calling match either. I'm not trying to gloss over anything. Slavery was definitely NOT something to be proud of. All I'm saying is that trying to compare the Confederacy to the freaking Nazi's is just plain ridiculous. As for the Civil War being only (or even primarily) about slavery, here is what I know: 1. South Carolina and the states who followed her originaly joined the Union of their own free will felt that it was also their right to leave the Union of their own free will. Peoples' allegiance back then was to their sovereign state first and the Union second. They saw the Union armies not as an emancipator of slaves, but as an invader of their sovereign state. 2. 90% of the people who fought and died for the South did NOT own slaves. Do you honestly believe that all of those people died so that slave-owning Southern aristocrats could continue their pampered lifestyles? These were free men in the free world, not serfs and mercenaries working for some feudal lord in the Dark Ages. 3. General Lee voluntarily freed all of his slaves before the start of the Civil War and also called Slavery "...a moral and political evil in any country." 4. President Lincoln's only interest was in preserving the Union. If his interest was in freeing slaves, he would not have stated "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union and it is not either to save or destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slaves I would do it." 5. General Grant, commander of the Union army, owned slaves before and during the Civil War. Also, when it became evident to President Lincoln that war was inevitable, he asked General Lee to command the amries of the North. It was not until General Lee freed all of his slaves and returned to defend his homeland (the South) that Lincoln asked Grant to command the Union armies. 6. His name escapes me, but there was at least one prominent black slave owner (yes, a black slave owner) who supported the South before and during the Civil War. I am not proud of slavery under either the Confederate or Union flag. I am a proud American, a proud Southerner, and a proud Texan and no one will take away the symbols of my pride, and no one will compare my ancestors and my history to the f*cking Nazis without getting me really pissed. Yes, Achebe, I've known of people beating their dogs, their kids, and their wives; but does every pet owner, every parent, and every husband do those things? The answer is no. As for the Confederate flag being a racist symbol, here is what I have to say about that: What the KKK does with that flag sickens me as it should any honorable Southerner. Much the same way they take the symbol of Christianity and use it, so they use that flag as a symbol of their evil. I hope the KKK, the Neo-Nazis, the Black Panthers, and any other Racist group ALL rot in hell. ------------------ I need a new signature. 302
Lynus, It seems as if this is a very emotional issue for you. I suppose it is for me too, in that I am from South Carolina and visit there at least three times a year. For some reason in every visit someone (in my family) says something racist. It is for that reason in the year 2000 that I have no qualms in acknowledging that 150 years ago things were much worse. My concern earlier wasn't actually 'name calling' as much as the fear that the arguments would sink into people adopting sides, and then determining premises to support those conclusions. Out of all philosophical fallacies, this is the most asinine and is labeled 'begging the question'. It is for that reason that I believe everyone should cast aside emotion and examine the facts. It is during this thread that I have gone from blindly accepting my grandmother's argument that 'state rights' were the cause of secession/civil war to recognizing that the secession was prompted by SC's 'slaveholder rights' being infringed upon. I also learned (from reading the declaration of secession) that Lincoln's stances on slavery were feared by South Carolinians when they seceded. <HR> The Union, as BK pointed out, was fighting to preserve the Union from being destroyed by states leaving under secession. As I pointed out using South Carolina's declaration of secession in a post earlier, showed that the ONLY reason that South Carolina seceded was because their slaveholding rights were being infringed upon by other non-slaveholding states. When you break up with your girlfriend, you can perhaps do it politely without telling her you're attracted to someone else. When you break out of a contractual obligation, it is your responsibility to show the relinquishment of your obligation. South Carolina's only justification for doing so (read my post above) was for slave holding reasons. (if A then B if B then C, therefore if A then C, unequivocal deductive reasoning) I believe my opinion on this was posted sometime yesterday morning: Did every single veteran from the Vietnam war agree with the US' causes? No. There are splinter groups throughout the Vietnam Veteran's association(s). That doesn't mean they did not fight those causes though (they're waiting in lines, let's kick their ass ). In my best Putty voice 'Yeah that's right'. I'm sure that there were Germans in WWII that felt sympathetically towards Jews; however, it doesn't endear me to the German's overall causes. In a post earlier I believe I made it abundantly clear what South Carolina's impressions were of Abraham Lincoln when they seceded. I could care less about Abraham Lincoln's actual demeanor, number of slaves or whether or not he slept with his grandmother. When they seceded, South Carolina said this about Abraham Lincoln: 'A geographical line has been drawn across the Union, and all the States north of that line have united in the election of a man to the high office of President of the United States, whose opinions and purposes are hostile to slavery. He is to be entrusted with the administration of the common Government, because he has declared that that "Government cannot endure permanently half slave, half free," and that the public mind must rest in the belief that slavery is in the course of ultimate extinction.' In fact (how could we ALL have forgotten), SC was concerned because of things that Lincoln had said in speeches as well as the Lincoln-Douglas-Debates (1858): http://www.debateinfo.com/hall_of_fame/lincoln-douglas/ Cause and effect. The war, was again, fought because the United States sought to preserve a Union that had been cast asunder because a slave holding state (and states) felt that its (their) slaveholding rights were being infringed upon. If I had cool fonts I could show using symbolic logic and "SC's declaration of secession" that: if 1) the slave holding states, did not feel like their slave holding rights had been infringed upon and 2) they were not afraid of Lincoln's anti-slavery intuitions, then _______________________________________ 3) they would not have seceded, and bingo! __________________________________________ 4) There would have been no war. That b*stard. I'm not sure South Carolina's secession, prompting a Civil War, had anything to do with General Grant. However, my hunch is no. Very interesting, I would like to know more about this. However, I'm not sure it has any relevance in dealing with the fact that South Carolina seceded because their slave holding rights had been infringed upon and... (blah, blah, blah). ------------------ The ClutchCity 500.
The Nazis, as in modern day Southern Sudan, as in colonial America, as in the time that Moors ruled Europe, etc. etc. all have one thing in common - treating someone like an artifact. Every human being has an inalienable (inherent) right to do as they please. For you to gloss over atrocities that occurred in colonial America shows the difference that the evolution of thought one hundred and fifty years makes. Would it help if I told you that in WWII Germans used Jews at VW, yet they were still killed? Don't give me any bs about 'but the Germans held a different contempt for Jews than did slaveholding Americans did for blacks'. To treat someone's will as your own is to consider them chattel. What is the difference in beating someone with a whip to impose my will upon them and in explicitly killing them. Either way, one is inflicting their will upon another. If I kill someone with two axe hits to the head, or I methodically kill them with a meat-grinder doesn't get past the point that I killed them. I occassionally see people beat their dogs. Do you? In 2000? You betcha! Why would someone beat their dog, an animal that they've embraced into their homes, feed and should otherwise nurture? What do you think slaveholding America thought of blacks? <HR> insideout, sir scarvajal: I find that very enlightenting. Hopefully BK can address his difference in memories as to that class. everyone: regardless of the differences in opinion, I hope that everyone sees arguments as I do: as merely that, an exchange of different opinions. Oftentimes people dealing with these issues turn to arguments such as 'your mama' or begin to engage in a philosophical fallacy of 'begging the question'. It is fun to converse/exchange ideas with people that consider the pursuit of knowledge a bigger end than that of the 'argument win'. Thank You. ------------------ The ClutchCity 500. [This message has been edited by Achebe (edited July 06, 2000).]
Achebe, you make some valid points but at this point, I agree to disagree. I know as well as anyone that racism did and does exist in both the North and the South. However, I refuse to accept the stance that the Confederate Flag stands for racism and persecution. I love that flag and I am not a racist and I hate the fact that hate groups adopted it as one of their symbols. I believe that the North and the South are very different, very distinct places. Nothing angers me more than when someone characterizes us as inbred, ignorant racists. I see that flag as a symbol of the people of the South, a symbol of our heritage, not hate. I'm out to Dallas for a few days. See ya'll again next Wed. When I return, I'll see if I can find the name and whatever relevant info I can about the black slave owner. ------------------ I need a new signature. 302
I bet there was at least one Jewish person who helped the Nazis as well. ------------------ Just because you're white and play basketball doesn't mean you're a Matt Bullard clone, despite idiotic accusations to the contrary. visit www.swirve.com
Symbols can mean many things to many people. For many people the US Flag symbolizes some pretty ugly things as well (e.g., many American Indians, other nations peoples who through no fault of their own who have been victums of our foreign policy games), but I nonetheless can take pride in the US flag even if I don’t excuse all behavior done under the guise of the American flag. Thus, I do not question that some take pride in Dixie for redeemable reasons, such as you Lynus, and I agree too there are a lot of nice things about the South and Southern culture. But because Dixie to so many Americans foremost symbolizes slavery, prejudice, and racism, and in a more general sense the dehumanization of a group of people based on their skin color, I don't think it is justified as a state sponsored symbol at all. It was the battle flag of splitting our nation after all, and splitting it apart on the issue Southern persons/States “right to own” slaves. I don't see how we can get around it that, and would further think most persons after thinking on it more and reflecting on history, would conclude it is a symbol they wouldn't want to be associated with (it connotates such extreme negative emotions for so many people for very legit reasons). But that doesn't mean I think every person who takes anything from Dixie takes it for the wrong reason, I hope I am clear about that. [This message has been edited by sir scarvajal (edited July 07, 2000).]
I would rather someone take my life than my freedom. ------------------ "No one gets out ALIVE!" SaveOurRockets.com
Sir Scarvajal: "But because Dixie to so many Americans foremost symbolizes slavery, prejudice, and racism, and in a more general sense the dehumanization of a group of people based on their skin color, I don't think it is justified as a state sponsored symbol at all." That (the italicised[sp?] part), I believe, is an uneducated thought, and thus the problem. To the majority of Dixie-loving Southerners, that is not what Dixie stands for. The problem is that we sit idely by and let hate groups wave around our flag as their own symbol, thus allowing outsiders to have such misconceptions. I think that is sad. "I nonetheless can take pride in the US flag even if I don’t excuse all behavior done under the guise of the American flag. Thus, I do not question that some take pride in Dixie for redeemable reasons, such as you Lynus, and I agree too there are a lot of nice things about the South and Southern culture." Thank you for that. I could not have said it better myself. ------------------ I need a new signature. 302 [This message has been edited by Lynus302 (edited July 08, 2000).]
When I think of long midnight walks through Charleston, down to a dock... or when I think of the fact that a bunch of us college bums actually found ourselves in a Rainbow Row home off of the battery, and that my bedroom window let in wind off of the water... or if I think of sitting on porches drinking tea... or if I think of sitting on a dock in McClellanville watching dolphins and egrets... or if I think of times in High School when I got up to go "shrimpin'" at 5:00 a.m. w/ my stepfather... only to be more captivated with the birds and water coming to life with the heating of the planet than the task at hand... or if I think of the soul of my nanny, and all that she taught me... or if I think of the kindness of Charleston (most hospital city in America a billion years running)... these things make me feel lucky. Unfortunately when I go home, it's usually because a family member is ill, getting married or it's the holidays, and I don't get to run all over Charleston. It's at these times that perhaps someone I thought was normal says things such as "I wear Greg Norman because all of the blacks have taken Tommy Hilfiger" (my mother's family is from Greenville, S.C. 'Bob Jones' country). It's those times that anger me about the South. I realize racism is rampant everywhere. Here in SLC, as you pointed out, the Mormons think that if a black person is a good person then they'll become 'whiter' in heaven (I'm here, by the way, because of the mountains). In South Carolina, racism however, is even more institutionalized. Whites against Blacks. Blacks against Whites. What are your beliefs? 'Ohh... let me check my color and see what I'm supposed to believe'. Very few people want to sympathize with another person, and people thereby enforce an adversarial relationship. So much could be accomplished if one side or another bridged the gap with a simple I understand. Thanks for the book references. I'm really interested in finding out about the role of the black slave owner. Typically when you think of oppressive situations there is some in-group out-group relationship. I always thought that slave holding America only had a premise of color to create this out group. Using the black slave owner, it seems as if another 'out group' cause would merely be financial status. Thanks. ------------------ The ClutchCity 500.
Jeff: I too would rather be dead than have my freedom taken away. Achebe: Check out the book The Free Negro in North Carolina, 1790-1860 by John Hope Franklin. Another one is Black Slaveowners - Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860 by Larry Koger. More information can be found about free blacks in the South as well as black slave owners in Census reports from that time, as there are a lot of listings. Now once again, let me emphatically state that in no way do I or did I ever support slavery or the institution thereof. Now, on to what I have to say. In this enlightened age, we know how horrible it is and was to enslave our fellow man. What we cannot do is deny the fact that, right or wrong, slavery was a way of life back then. Fact: Warring tribes in Africa back then (and even to some extent today)captured POWs and made slaves out of them for their own tribe, sold them to other tribes, or sold them to white slavers to be taken to Europe or America. Here is something else to chew on: Think about how religious (and thusly superstitous)people were back then, including the (still) super-religious denominations like the Southern Baptists, Church of Christ, the Mormons etc. To put this in perspective, in the entire history of mankind we are not even 400 years removed from the witch hunts in our own country, or the horrors of persecution of the Spanish Inquisition. The reason I am bringing religion into this topic is that you can make one hell of a case supporting slavery from the Bible. Here are some quotes, take them for what they are: "Slavery was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts." --Jefferson Davis, President of the Confederate States of America "There is not one verse in the Bible inhibiting slavery, but many regulating it. It is not then, we conclude, immoral." --Rev. Alexander Campbell "The right of holding slaves is clearly established in the Holy Scriptures, both by precept and example." --Rev. R. Furman, D.D., Baptist, of South Carolina You can find passages from the Bible and info about various explanations and translations at http://www.ReligiousTolerance.org in the section What the Bible says about Slavery. Here is the direct link: http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl.htm Now, I consider myself to be a Christian. Most main-stream denominations would not agree with me, however, because I think the Bible is a beautifully written work of fiction, and in some cases, completely full of crap. I do not take the Bible word-for-word, I never have and I never will. You would be hard pressed to find a person with beliefs similar to my own back then, or even 50 years ago. If you did, most likely they wouldn't admit it for fear of being shunned by society or for fear of even worse consequenses. We can say today how horrible slavery is and was; but back then, as an accepted way of life, that would not be so easy to do. Especially when slave owners thought they were mandated by God Himself to be slave owners. Now whether or not God wants us to own slaves is another can of worms, but 150 years ago, you did what the Bible said. It is my belief, right or wrong, that these people believed they were justified by God and the Bible (more than racism) to own Negro slaves. The Mormon church still considers black people to be cursed by God. I think the slave owners were not only morally in the wrong, but completely ignorant as well, seeing as how God told them it was okay to own slaves. Not having slavery was a concept they simply could not grasp. As for the Mormons, well, what can I say? They're all Jazz fans. That should pretty much explain it all. I am not denying that racism existed then (or today). Certainly it did (and does), and that in itself is horrible and sad, but I can't fault people for what they were always taught to believe. I can only fault those who know better, but just don't care. And I still love Dixie. ------------------ I need a new signature. 302 [This message has been edited by Lynus302 (edited July 08, 2000).]
Frinkster, I always try to give people the benefit of the doubt. And, I always try to treat individuals as individuals, and not lump them into categories. So, I'm sure the North itself is a nice place to be sometimes, and I'm sure that some Northerners are nice. But, I'm from the South, and I like the South. I've encountered a higher percentage of people that aren't from the South that I did not get along with, so I am solely basing my opinion on my own experiences. ----------------------------------- The Swastika is much different than the Confederate Flag. The Nazis were voted into power. But, the things they did to the Jews and to the POWs were just plain evil. I don't think Germans when I see the swastika, because the citizens of Germany were (for the most part) fooled along with the rest of the world. They didn't know what the Nazis were doing in the concentration camps. It wasn't just the killing of the Jews that was horrific. What about all the experiments the Nazis performed on them? Like the "cold tolerance test". They would take 5 prisoners and make them lay naked out in the snow and see how long it took them to die. There were tests on twins. To see if they could feel what the other was feeling, they would seperate them and toture one, while recording the actions of the other. They also did experiments on pregnant women. They would sometimes tie a woman's legs together when she was giving birth. Slavery is wrong. There's no doubt about that. But, is has been around since there were warring tribes at the beginning of history. The Mexicas (Aztecs) had slaves, the Egyptians had slaves, the Romans had slaves. But, in the whole scheme of things the barbaric treatment, torture, experimentation, and simple extermination that the Nazis implemented was worse. (In my mind) -------------------------------- I find it humorous that many of the same people who are for the lowering of the Confederate flag have no problem with the American flag that still flies above every state capital. As other posters have noted the American flag doesn't exactly symbolize Utopia. I think it is hypocritical to be for the removal of the Confederate flag, and yet not the American flag. Why was it so controversial when Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf decided that he didn't want to stand for the Pledge of Alliegence, because he felt that it symbolized a persecution of African Americans? But, it's okay to say the same thing about the Confederate flag? I think the American flag symbolizes more negativity towards minorities of all races than does the Confederate flag. ----------------------------- To Conclude: About 40% of me says take it down. Take it down, because it offends people. But, then I ask why does it offend people? Because of the Civil War and slavery. But, why should that flag symbolize slavery? Because it was the flag adopted by the Southern states who ceded from the Union. When I see the Confederate flag, I admit that there is a part of me that cringes because of it's link to slavery. But, there's also a part of me who sees it as a symbol of states rights (regardless of which rights those may be, they were still rights), a symbol of people not bending to the will of others, and a symbol of unity (though is it also a symbol of seperation). In the end, if taking it off the tops of capital buildings will make this world a better place, then I guess I'm all for it. But, when those same flags are place right in front of the capital building on a memorial for soldiers of the civil war, DO NOT complain and want it removed from there to.
I parked next to this guy the other day at work. On the back of his truck, he had a confederate flag, and underneath the flag, it read "Worth Fighting For!" I put a note on his windshield that said "Yup, and you lost!" I've never seen a group of people, outside of Astros and Cubs fans, be so obsessed with losers in my life. ------------------ Just because you're white and play basketball doesn't mean you're a Matt Bullard clone, despite idiotic accusations to the contrary. visit www.swirve.com
Sorry, I don't buy that the peoples who conducted the lynchings in the country are any less evil than the Nazi's doing their experiments. The dragging death that happened in Texas a year ago or so is similar in my book to many of the Nazi's activities. It is torture and dehumanization based on skin color, religion or culture, and just because one form had been more "commonplace" in history, or justified by religious documents, makes it no more or less evil. Again though, the educated view in my mind is that Dixie most represents States Rights to own slaves despite the nation’s objections. You can emphasize the former part (“freedom” of citizens or states to own slaves seems like an oxymoron to me though), but I think the latter part is the essence of the civial war and indeed its battleflag. That is why I won't support it, despite Dixie perhaps also representing some other positive elements that have been pointed out by myself and others. I don’t think the essence of the US Flag is for taking away freedom, despite many activities conducted under the guise of the flag being less than redeemable, that is where I draw the line for myself. But I also don't have a problem with people like Adul-Raef not supporting the US Flag, as there are legitimate beefs about it. In fact I don't believe anyone should have to support something they truly don't believe in, I think requiring people to recite the pledge or salute the flag is not a place for government or the law. By having such a law (e.g., against flag burning) in my mind you belittle the ideals of the flag itself more than making a valid point. ------------------ "The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though."
very good then DREAMer thank you for clearing that up. Glad to hear that you weren't lumping us all together because while I think i am a generally laid back kind of person - I have a coworker that is just a terror and he's never in a good mood. And he's a northerner, been so all of his life. Someimes, you can just sit back and laugh at him to make him angrier because what else are you going to do, take him seriously? as for you, Brian Kagy, I like the north for many reasons but not so in a "North over South" way. I like the north because I identify with it. My physique is more built for colder weather and I could be a superfan I bet if I really wanted to, polish sausages and warm cheap beer in December is my knid of cookout. Also my entire family is up here and the ties there are far too strong, so you see that doens't necessarily make the north better than the south, just for me, i don't think it's the place for me, not until I retire. ------------------ Finally the Frink has come back to Clutch City! dot net.
Rocketman95 quote: "I parked next to this guy the other day at work. On the back of his truck, he had a confederate flag, and underneath the flag, it read "Worth Fighting For!" I put a note on his windshield that said "Yup, and you lost!" I've never seen a group of people, outside of Astros and Cubs fans, be so obsessed with losers in my life." So, using that logic, should we then cease to "Remember the Alamo"? --------------- Sir Scarvajal: Like I said before, all those lynchings and racism are things that anyone should be ashamed of. The fact that hate groups use the Confederate flag as their symbol sickens and angers me. The cross is used by the KKK. I don't seem to notice anyone rushing out to say that Christianity is racist just because the KKK uses the cross as one of their primary symbols. The church itself has condemned, terrorized, and killed millions of people over the course of history, all in the name of God. Are people demanding the removal of all things Christian (separation of church and state notwithstanding) from our country? ------------------ I need a new signature. 302 [This message has been edited by Lynus302 (edited July 10, 2000).]
The what? I realize that this was a call-to-pride, but I suggest that we merely realize that not all fights were worth fighting for. I realize that I brought up the analogy of the swastika to the Confederate Flag based on their usages by racist groups (in this post, I'm not suggesting it was an original idea ). I am currently not a KKK historian, so I have a few questions for everyone: 1) Why does the KKK ally itself with the Cross (a burning one at that)? What is the symbolism desired/achieved by such an act? (I'd do a little history searching on the internet, but with the previous 'SC declaration' search that I did, I'm afraid the FBI has me pegged as a weirdo right now ) Is this for validity? Or was it merely a sign of the times in a fundamentalist era? A call to arms as it were? 2) Why does the KKK ally itself with the Confederate Flag? I doubt that KKK members in Idaho have any recognition of a peaceful, relaxing South such as you and I have described Lynus. Why do neo-nazis in Europe embrace the Confederate Flag as well as the Swastika? What is it that blatant racists would see in the Confederate Flag? The Confederate Flag inherently conjures up an image of the past --- again, of slavery. A time when 'worth fighting for' meant preservation of wrongful ideals. To paraphrase Chris Rock "rednecks are always representin'". In this sense, rednecks are representing stupidity and a time when white males weren't confused or frightened... they at least held some sense of power. I merely think that the KKK utilizes both of these tools because they identify with both of these artifacts. They are Christian (though, perhaps fundamentalist... I doubt there are too many Catholic, Episcopalian or Methodist KKK members) as well as racist. I see no flaw in the use of both tools in their ideology. ------------------ The ClutchCity 500.
Lynus, the main post I was responding to was Dreamer's claim that slavery and crimes conducted by some racists in this country were NOT comparable to actions conducted by Nazi's. I don't agree with that at all. Symbols are not actions, I am not saying Dixie caused lynchings (for that matter Swastikas didn't cause the actions of the Nazi's either), or that “all” it represents is racism. But in my view, States/citizens "Right" to own slaves and bring the country to war over this "Right" is an absolutely essential element to what Dixie represents, thus I don't think we should sanction it as a nation nor would I personally. It is true many people have used a crucifix or the US Flag in doing barbaric actions, but I don't think they are the essence of these symbols as the civil war/institution of slavery is to Dixie. I also believe individuals should be able to endorse and condemn the symbols of their choosing, but when it becomes a state sponsored symbol additional tests have to be met to sit alright with me. Even if 51% of a particular state wants it, we should not have Dixie flying over a state house any more than we should have a cross sitting on top of it. ------------------ "The Rockets were ahead of the Suns by 20 late in game 2 of the series, but when the going got tough, we just Pippened . We would not be done in the series though."
Achebe-- I think the KKK uses the cross as a symbol of Christianity and the purity of the white race, or some such garbage. Seeing as how Jesus was a Jew, I have NO idea how these two things corollate(sp?). As for racist groups using the Swastika (which is a variation of the cross...and has also been found and used as a symbol in other religions, both ancient and current, from Native American tribes to ancient religions in Europe...ironic, isn't it?) and the Confederate flag, well...that should be obvious, otherwise we wouldn't be having this debate. The two symbols are convenient and easily recognizable. ---------- I realize that, to many people, the South and all of her symbols represents slavery. While this one incredibly dark period was certainly the biggest black mark against us, I also think there is much more to love about the South. I also think slavery itself was more historically and religiously motivated than racially. Let me rephrase that: I think the historical and religious aspect bred the racist aspect. I'm sure the ancient Egyptians felt the same way about Hebrew slaves as white Southerners of the Civil War era felt about the black slaves. Sad, but true. ------------------ I need a new signature. 302 [This message has been edited by Lynus302 (edited July 10, 2000).]
Lynus, Big difference. That was a battle in a war we ultimately won. The Confederates got beat. Using your logic, the Mexican flag should still be flying right up there with the state flag and the Stars and Stripes. ------------------ Just because you're white and play basketball doesn't mean you're a Matt Bullard clone, despite idiotic accusations to the contrary. visit www.swirve.com
RM95: I see your point, but we aren't Mexicans anymore, but we are still Southerners. I never said I thought the Confederate flag should still be flying in SC. ------------------ I need a new signature. 302
