Bitcoin is destroying the environment + energy grid to make scammers rich

super low iq post. Don't peak under the AI hood because it just might expose you for being an idiot.

As we say, Have Fun Staying Poor

 

If that facility were to shut down . . .say extented power outage or something
What would be the effect?
What would the impact on the Public? The people with coins there?

Rocket River

 

I think Bitcoin is a cool idea, but I don't want it around. That said, if anything, the grid benefits from Bitcoin, because Bitcoin mining makes the grid more flexible.

 

Huh? How does bitcoin mining making the grid more flexible when most all renewable tax credits were just demolished ? Bitcoin mining will drive up wholesale electricity costs

 

Bitcoin mining is very sensitive to the price of electricity, which drives the majority of its costs. So mining operations want to get very close to supply, co-locate if possible, and be fully exposed to the cost of generation. Then it will turn on and off mining operations based on the real-time price of its electricity. For the grid, that means that it creates purpose for generation when there is excess supply, but when conditions get right, mining turns off and the generation they had been using can be repurposed to more critical loads.

 

That's pretty much the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Crypto is essentially electronic trading cards. The only reason it is still around is it allows rich people to money launder legally.

You want to give Trump a billion dollars without a trace? Trump creates a meme coin that no one wants, and some corrupt government buys a billion dollars worth of it. Trump gets a billion dollars, the crypto becomes worthless. The only people holding the bag are maggots who aren't in on the scheme.

 

bitcoin miners are subject to noise laws like any other industrial facility

 

If a power plant is generating more energy than is demanded at any given time, they either have to shunt it into the ground or find a battery to store it in (not ideal). Turning equipment on and off isn't ideal either.

If you have bitcoin miners on site, any undemanded energy can be converted to bitcoin at the point of generation (no transmission required)

Depending on the cost of generation and the price of bitcoin, it may not be profitable. But it's more profitable than letting it go to waste.

It's not free of charge, they pay for the electricity, just like you do when you charge your cell phone.

 

A rare good thread by AroundTheWorld.

I feel similarly about AI datacenters. They are ruining the lives of local residents by overconsuming resources and causing air/noise pollution.

Neither technology is vital for survival.

 

Babies first class-conscious moment ;')

 

Models are never wrong (especially economic models!).

It's interesting how one particular consumer of electricity is singled out over all others. We should ban video games because consuming electricity to play them is wasteful.

 

This video feels like it could be made about any industry that moves into an area and disturbs the local ecosystem or economy. Why they chose to pick on Bitcoin feels like they have an agenda they're pushing. The fact they go through the same tired list of debunked nonsense about BTC only furthers that suspicion.

I feel bad for those affected. I really do. But that is the risk you take when you live somewhere without such laws and protections.

OP, it sounds like you have a lot to learn about BTC and energy markets. Join us over here if you're curious.

 

People are using energy to do something I don't understand, and they're getting rich doing it, and I'm unable or unwilling to learn so I'm gonna be mad about it

 

I don't like how you make me come to the defense of the bitcoin industry, but as some in the power industry, I feel like I have to caution you that this article is misleading. Not to say the miners are all angels or something, but earthjustice is stoking an hysteria with a simplistic portrayal.

A couple quick (ok, not so quick) notes:
* In regulated markets (meaning where you have to buy from the utility), crypto takes power at a regulated tariff. I guess the most important thing here being that the rates they pay are determined by the utility and then studiously examined by a state Utility Commission whose religion is 'safe, reliable, and affordable.' Commissioners have nightmares about customer classes shifting costs on to other customer classes. They exist to protect consumers from the kinds of abuse earthjustice alleges. Earthjustice participates as an intervenor in dockets to advocate for one or another treatment. They publish articles like this because their arguments are not effective in front of the commissions (and no, the commissions are not getting bribed by bitcoin operators).

* When they do get a specialized crypto tariff (and most utilities just treat them as a large C&I customer), they've made concessions to get a cheap price, like being flexible and interruptible. They also have a cheap load profile to serve -- when they are on, they have a very high load profile (same amount of energy every hour).

* Tariffs are divided into delivery and energy prices. Delivery is still regulated everywhere -- while energy can be competitive like in Texas -- and is treated as above. There can be thorny issues of who pays for transmission expansions, and there will be many with the coming data center bubble. But, for crypto, which tends to locate near generation, the transmission demands are usually small.

* I see the Woodmac footnote about raising people's energy prices by $5/MWh. They overclaim on what their spreadsheet analysis means in real life. Same for BloombergyNEF. In a competitive generation market like Texas, a long-run impact on demand also incentivizes supply to build more generation. So a $5/MWh blip in one year becomes unmeasurable over several years because supply will have reacted to that price signal. By the logic they use, the Texas Med Center is also increasing my electricity price because if they cease to exist, LMPs near me would fall -- but then nearby power plants would shutter because they are no longer needed, and I would be back in the same boat as before. The comparison is only ridiculous because we see the good of having the TMC open but don't see the good in having a bitcoin mine around.

* Selling back to the grid: In Texas, we have a realtime market (used for settling up, essentially), and a day-ahead market where you can buy or sell your position as you finalize your forecast, but most deals are bilateral forward trades. For example, your retail electric provider probably bought 12 months of your expected usage the day you signed a contract with them. Since power is so important to their business model, miners will hedge their electricity needs way ahead of time, and then trade around that position as their near-term forecast settles out, just like a REP would. So, yeah, they might sell a position and make millions after they spent millions to get the position in the first place. They probably profit as well because they will sell the position only when the power price is high in the day-ahead market. And anyway, that money isn't transacted with "the grid" -- they are transacting with other for-profit entities.

* I see they quote the $/kwh energy charges for customer classes in various states, ignoring entirely that C&I customers and bitcoin miners also pay very significant demand charges ($/max kw). Resi customers have their demand charge built into the $/kwh which is part of why they look like they are charged more.

* Crypto or data centers disappearing after infrastructure is built for them is a preoccupation for regulators. Some tariffs for crypto and data centers are going to require surety bonds to make sure their incremental cost to pay for grid enhancements is covered even if they themselves go bankrupt.