The “give me Harden over FVV” takes are embarrassing

40min-40mil-2-for-12 over Harden? lol.

 

The problem is posters act like FVV is being paid the same as Harden. FVV is on an unguaranteed deal thats why he got overpaid 40M. Everybody knows FVV isnt worth that much but Stone paid him that so we can dump him if needed.

Meanwhile, Harden was shooting for a 5 yr max deal from Philly and then just got backstabbed by Morey thats why he got his current deal on the Clippers.

If Rox chose Harden over FVV they would have had to give Harden a 5 yr max deal to get him over Sixers. Its impossible for us to get Harden with FVV contract as he was after bigger money at the time.

I like Harden but if he had come here as the system the young guys wouldnt have developed as they would be reduced to Harden's sidekicks.

NOW though, Harden might be a good fit in FA over FVV, I wouldnt mind having as a free agent over losing assets trading for KD.

 

this team would be pushing 60 wins with harden.

 

Two things
1. This idea that Harden is not coach able is weird
-- He has been the side kick everywhere he has gone since leaving Houston
2. Harden didn't have a deal and 5 yr max was not necessary
-- He literally took a deal that was less than FVV's deal - Houston was the ONLY team he would have forced a 5 yr max from????
-- Philly didn't really want him back (for some ungodly reason they preferred to pay PG13)

Rocket River
Let's not be revisionist in this one

 

I love Harden but I don't see him as a vocal leader or a great role model this young team. I think FVV was a great signing for a young team that needs a floor general, a vocal leader and a great role model.

 

You laughing that the Rockets only played one starter in a meaningless game?
Or that the clippers are in a must win situation to avoid the play-in tourney?
Or that Harden played well against guys that ride the bench all season?

lol

 

1. Ime style is ugly offense 100% defense. You know Harden right? He aint scrapping on D.

2. Harden signed with Clippers July 1, 2024. This was when he didnt have a deal after Morey stabbed him in the back.
https://www.nba.com/news/james-harden-2024-free-agency

3. Rockets signed FVV July 2023
https://www.nba.com/rockets/news/rockets-sign-free-agent-guard-fred-vanvleet

When Rox chose between FVV and Harden, Harden had that hush hush deal with Morey. Harden signed with Clippers a year later after Morey betrayed him to pay Paul George.

You are actually the one being revisionist, you are making it out like Harden signed his current deal with the Clippers the same time as Rox chose FVV.

Why do you think Morey and Harden had that feud? You think Morey refused to pay Harden a 2 yr 70M deal? Cmon man.

Here is the reality, if James Harden told Rox in 2023 that he will sign for 2 yrs 35M you think Rox will choose 40M for FVV???? lol

 

perhaps

Rocket River

 

I see why you say what you say, but I disagree.

Harden has been the #1 or #2 option for that past ~15 years. Now he's basically back to being the #1 option for the Clippers. Being the #1 OR #2 means that he is, and has always been, a key focal point of the offense. Being the "side kick" isn't relevant if they are still specifically running plays for him.

FVV, on the other hand, often doesn't even bring the ball up the court. The ball is increasingly in Jalen's hands. FVV ends up being like the 3,4, or 5th option. Jalen and Alp are the clear #1,2 scoring options. They are not featuring FVV at all. Their goal is to feature Jalen and Alp, which would be hard to do with ball dominant Harden.

Regarding Harden's contract, all the reports at the time is that he demanded a max deal. After that fell apart, at the 11th hour, Harden struck a lessor deal prob cause he didn't have many more options left on the table due to timing. I don't that Harden would have accepted the deal he got with the Clips in Houston. I think that was just the scraps that were left. But we'll never know cause we weren't in the room so it's all just conjecture. But what we do know is, the Rockets can now get out of the FVV contract and have more cap flexibility than they would have if they had Harden on 4-5 years.

Philly didn't want him for the same reason the Rockets didn't want him. When things start to burn down, Harden always seems to be the one standing there pointing his fingers at everyone else as if he is totally innocent.

I don't think any of this is revisionist history. The Rockets clearly made a call to go in another direction ...and they did it for reasons. Probably for all the reasons I just listed. Not revisionist at all.

 

Yea, because this was the only game he's played well in recently, right?

After last night, Harden has scored 35+ against every single team in the NBA. Maybe that's something Fred can aspire to. I mean he's only 31, he still has some time.

L. O. L.

This thread is disrespectful to one of the greatest players of all-time, so I will continue laughing at it. Relentlessly.

 

Just want to argue against one point you made here. Last season FVV was very much the focal point of the offense and in reality when he played was still a very big part this year.

You spoke to ball dominance :

In 23/24

Touches per game
FVV : 80.1
Harden : 75.6

Time of possession per game
FVV : 6.5 minutes
Harden : 6.8 minutes

This season

Touches per game
FVV : 76.3
Harden : 81.4

Time of possession per game
FVV : 5.8 minutes
Harden : 7.4 minutes

Things swung more to Harden ball this season, but you would have to acknowledge the circumstance. Kawhi was out most of the year and there was no longer PG there to take up possessions along with the fact with the remaining roster was all guys who need to be set up not ones who can create for themselves. The team needed him to take on a larger role, I don’t think he demanded it.

 

It's not disrespectful. Literally nobody disagrees with you, except maybe the OP.

Two things can be true at the same time.

In 2023, Harden wasn't playing that well. In 2023, Harden had just been part of destruction of 3 consecutive teams.

What everyone is saying is the Rockets made a strategic choice to feature Jalen and Alp as the #1 and #2 scoring options. Harden has NEVER successfully been the #3-5 scoring option since his OKC days. Who cares what Harden has done this season. Unless you have a time machine, it's irrelevant.

But while we are discussing 2025, regarding that strategy to sign FVV over Harden, that seems to be working. So not sure why you feel the need to kep defending Harden. Let us know when you want to rejoin reality.

 

It was more a successful formula vs a successful ex player.

And Udoka's formula won out.

Now what would it take to talk Udoka into embracing Harden, that is whole new saga....

 

Do you really belive any of players would have developed this well with the ball in hardens hands all the time? Sengun perhaps with the PnR.

100% guarantee you Amen would get benched because he’s not a 3 point floor spacer. Harden is allergic to the fast break so Amen wouldn’t shine there either

 

Just to reititerate. Last season FVV and Harden played nearly identical roles for their teams. 3rd scoring option with eerily similar ball dominance. The idea that Harden can’t and won’t play this role is just not based in reality. Yeah young prime Harden would have never done it, but he literally did do for the Clippers exactly what Fred did for us last season.

I would also argue that just because Harden at this stage doesn’t run fast break he always has been and still is one of the best in the league at the full court outlet passes that leads to fast breaks.

And just to once again make my stance known. I did not want Harden back, I too worried about cost and health to the point that I just didn’t think it was worth it. At the same time I disagree pretty strongly with some of the reasons others didn’t want him back.

 

Good points. That is higher than I'd imagine so I give you that. ...but doesn't feel right. As they say, doesn't pass the eye test.

I took a look at some of their Advanced Stats, here are a few that jump out:

% of Unassisted FGM
Harden: 73.9% (24-25) and 68.2% (23-24)
FVV: 50.0% (24-25) and 50.9% (23-24)

Usage %
Harden: 28.6% (24-25) and 20.2 (23-24)
FVV: 17.5% (24-25) and 19.4 (23-24)

% of Team's Points
Harden: 27.1% (24-25) and 19.8% (23-24)
FVV: 16.9% (24-25) and 19.9% (23-24)
Note: 23-24 was the lowest of Harden's career. Since he left Houston, his AVG = 25%. When he was in Houston, his AVG was closer to 35%!!!

AST/TO Ratio (as a bonus stat)
Harden: 2.02 (24-25) and 3.32 (23-24)
FVV: 3.93 (24-25) and 4.67 (23-24)

 

this doesn’t make any sense when world renowned shooter Kris Dunn starts next to Harden

Zubac looks like a top 5 C now

Norman Powell and Kawhi somehow find time to have the ball in their hands playing next to James Harden. How are they managing to do that?

Norman Powell was having a career year before his injury

Clippers somehow manage to be 13th in fastbreak ppg with nowhere near the amount of athletes in Houston, 7 spots behind the Rockets…you’d swear the Clippers were last in the league

y’all are just making stuff up atp

Amen would be benched? Seriously?

 

FVV clearly provided more value last season. Harden provides value by scoring and creating for others. This year, Harden has basically been given free reign to gooble up more value than he did last season.

 

Harden at this point is basically whatever they need him to be

He just fits in where he gets in

Rocket River

 

True Harden is still the more iso heavy player who takes more risk and Fred the more steady and careful player. I acknowledge that the style of play is not the same, which may or may not have changed how certain guys on our team developed had we gone that route. We can guess, but we can’t know.

But I was addressing a common arguing point I have seen about what he can/cant do or will/wont do. That Harden would have to have the ball so much and would/could never be a 3rd option unlike Fred. That’s just not reality, because when that role was presented to him last season he had no problem with it.

Harden shot the ball 11 times per game last season as the 3rd option. Fred averaged more shots than that this and last year. I noted the time of possession numbers and touches. Very similar when the role that was asked of them was similar.

My only point is this …if your issue is ball dominance and shot attempts than to me those aren’t valid arguments based on what actually happened when both players were given similar roles.