The “give me Harden over FVV” takes are embarrassing

Who here is saying Fred is better? No one. What does “any competent pg” mean? Define this. You are undervaluing Fred’s contributions here. Not every player fits a system or style or with a certain roster. Kyrie didn’t work in Boston. Beal didn’t work in Phoenix. Rondo didn’t quite fit or had the same success he had in Boston afterwards, although did win another ring as a role player with the Lakers towards the end of his career.

The significance here is about fit. Not every player fits with a certain roster. Not every player fits with a certain style. Not every player fits with a certain culture. Not every player impacts winning. Considering Harden’s legacy of not playing defense, toxic behavior, ball dominant/iso ball heavy—he does not seem to fit what this team is trying to accomplish. So I disagree he would have the same success here or impact winning as much despite being more talented offensively than Fred.

 

thats what they dont seem to understand. Harden is superior offensively but the key is about fit. Harden simply doesn’t fit with our culture and identity.

 

Also Harden:

Sixers record got worse with 1.5 years he was there.

Lets not forget the playoff performances

Playoffs:
21-22
Bounced semifinals Heat 2-4
Game 5: 14 pts 4 TO
Game 6: 11 pts 4 TO

22-23
Bounced semifinals Bos 3-4
Game 6: 13 pts .400 2pt% .000 3pt% 5 TO
Game 7: 9 pts .333 2pt% .200 3pt% 5 TO

Clippers lost in 1st round in 22-23 without him. Same result 23-24

Clippers
23-24
Bounced from 1st round to lower seed Dallas 2-4
Game 5: 7 pts .200 2pt% .143 3pt%
Game 6: 16 pts. .000 3 pt%

Wilts in the biggest moments

 

I would have brought back Harden over FVV if it was an option.

The way Harden would have elevated this young team would be unreal.

 

he isnt doing anything vital to our team that any competent pg cant do is a lot different than he isn't vital to our team.

 

Does he fit the culture, style, and identity of this team? He plays no defense. Is that demonstrating good leadership for this young team?

He also has never won a championship and has demonstrated poor performances in the biggest games of his career. I just posted what he’s done past 3 years not including the multiple failed series with the Rockets. Why bring a player like that back?

 

You’re nitpicking stats.

FVV has had stinkers too, fortunately not everyone sees him as highly as you to care to call him a choker.

Heat series he was recovering from the hamstring.

phi he had great games as well, go watch the game 6 final 5 minutes see the passes he made while his team was up. All bricks and Boston came back

Are you the guy that said scoring isn’t everything when defending FVV or was that someone else.

The way you mention these stats and points against harden makes it seem like the train stops with Harden, are you saying the same with FVV. That the rockets go as far as FVV takes them?

 

My point was clear. CP3 was not there for Game 6 and Game 7. I think the Rockets win the series. I watched all of Harden's games too and can point out the problems but the idiotic statement from Dreamshook ignored this basic truth. History is a lot different based on one single event.

My designation of pointing out players is look at what comprised the GSW team. They lost once because Draymond was suspended (I loved it) and lost another time because Durant and Thompson had season ending injuries actually suffered in the win vs the Rockets. Losing to GSW in the WCF was sadly like losing to Jordan's Bulls. Its not a point of derision.

 

That's cause Harden's good enough to be remembered for his failures. FVV has never been useful enough in the playoffs for people to even remember his name.

I mean do you remember FVV in the 2022 playoffs series between Sixers vs. Raptors? Sixers won 4-2. In the games FVV played, Sixers won 3-1.

Harden 19/5/10 on .582 TS%
FVV 14/3/6 on .486 TS%

Of course you don't. Cause nobody remember the 3rd best player on a first round exit playoff team. That's the level of playoff performer FVV is.

 

jeezus christ. Fvv was a bench pg that won it all that is not the same thing as what harden has to do.

Harden haters always like to tout his poor playoff performances to sht on him

VanVleet has averaged 10.0 points, 3.5 assists and 2.1 rebounds in 52 games in the playoffs in his career'

When our young core is strugglin in the playoffs, u think FVV is gonna bail us out?

 

I have a good feeling about James this year though......

Winning anything in the West is tough enough.

 

What the heck kinda metric is this

 

It looks similar to EPM (Estimated Plus Minus) because I saw recently James was top 12 in that as well.

 

Why are you comparing their playoff careers then?

I pointed out the fact that Harden simply has wilted in the playoffs when it matters in several critical must win situations. He simply has not closed out several playoff series. This is a fact.
This was my direct response to you claiming Harden is “better” for this team and “better” than Fred.

Their roles have been different as starters.
Fred isn’t expected to dominate the ball and be a main cog in this offense. Harden has been this for most of his career while playing iso ball. That’s what he’s good at so teams have let him iso as he’s been a top 3 iso player in the league since 15-16.

To simply look at their career playoff avg and declare Harden “better” without further context or analysis is simply flawed logic. Harden has played more minutes (almost starter minutes) as a 6th man with OKC even in his first few years in the league. Harden has been thru 15 playoff series in 15 years. Same result. No rings.

2018 West conf finals
Game 4
3-12 3pt

Game 5
0-11 3pt 6 TO

Game 6
4-12 3 pt 9TO

Game 7
2-13 3pt 5 TO

2020 semifinals lakers lost 1-4
Game 4 down 2 games to 1
.167 3pt% .200 2pt% 5 TO


Fred
only played in 5 playoff series. (Avg 8 min or so first 2 yrs)

MIL 2019 e conf finals win 4-2
Game 5
37 min 7-9 3pt
Game 6
33 min 4-5 3pt 14 pts

2019 finals win 4-2
Game 6
33 min 4-5 3 pt 22pts

2019 NBA Champ

 

nope I never said thay. You did.

yes Fred didn’t have some good must win games but Fred also won a ring playing big minutes and played well in this biggest series of his career. He also only played in 5 playoff series (3 if you count series with him playing big minutes).

 

Dying on a FVV over Harden hill has to be one of the most hilarious things I've seen on these boards in a long time.

Harden is still one of the most impactful players in the LEAGUE. But nah give me FVV.

 

Fvv should never be mentioned next to Hardens name.

FVV should be compared to BJ Armstrong or Derek Harper.

 

Can't help the stupid folks. Since harden choke as the main franchise player in playoffs and fvv won a ring as a bench pg. Fvv > harden for our team.

Harden offense and playmaking talent dwarfs fvv, but nah fvv won a ring and hardens a choker so fvv is better for our team.

Stupidity at its finest.

A hof of fame talent, one of the greatest offense threat/playmaker is somehow unable to elevate this team bc he chokes in playoffs?

Harden's whole fking career is elevating the floor of his teammates to get into playoffs. Meanwhile fvv main job isnt even to b the main offense threat, but to just secure the dam ball.

But nah fvv is better cause he won a ring. Stupid.

 

Yes I do but that’s not the point. Players are assessed by their level of play in the biggest moments of their careers. Harden simply failed multiple times in these big games. Fred stepped up and played starter type minutes as a bench player and helped win them a title. He is a champion and nothing can take that away from him. Besides Harden played in 15 straight playoffs. Fred has only played in 3 where he played more than 8 min a game. You do the math.

 

Who said Fred was better? The discussions have been who is the better fit. Offensive Talent doesn’t always mean fit. The discussions also have been was it a mistake to sign Fred and whether Harden would have the same success. At no point did anyone on this board said Fred is a more talented player than Harden. But there’s more than just offensive talent that goes into building teams and winning championships.

15 years straight no rings and consistent bad performances in must win games should tell you something about Harden.