Is Political Debate Healthy?

My two cents:

Taking a historical term, like Nazi or Fascist, and applying it to modern day politics is very often a rhetorical device to draw an equivalence. To tacitly argue that if you support/defend these people over here, then you would have supported/defended those people over there. I think that is probably where his objection lies. His strong views on the subject perhaps has something to do with his Jewish background and a perceived insinuation that he would have defended the murder of Jews in the 30s/40s.

I think it's fine to make historical comparisons, but invoking "Nazi" or "Fascist" can come across like mindless name-calling, in the same vein "lib-tard" or "MAGAT", when the differences between historical Nazis and Fascists and present-day partisans are just glossed over.

 

No, typically not. Everyone is too stupid and hopelessly partisan.

 

Nazism is a specific political party that existed in Germany in the 1920s, 30s, 40s

Fascism is a reactionary ideology that defines various political movements around the globe

You are dismissing scholars and academics who study this for a living by saying you can't apply the term fascism to present day context. It's like saying there are no ideoligical socialists today because a literal socialist party in America doesn't exist.


Almost any academic scholar of fascism who studied these historical movements in Spain, Germany, Italy etc will be very comfortable telling you that the MAGA movement is fascist. It's merely an observable trait.


And since America has poor education in terms of history, Americans only understand the term "fascism" in the context of its most extreme final form which was the the Third Reich and the Holocaust. Most Americans have little education on the actual fascist movements in these countries before they took power. Americans don't understand the rhetoric of fascism. They don't understand the ideology of fascism. To most Americans "fascism" is a mustache twirling villian sending Jews to death camps. Yes that is the most extreme end form of fascism. But fascism has many other forms before that final genocide form.

This is a large part of why accusations of "fascism" are inherently seen as an extreme insult equivalent of accusing someone of being a pedophile. Because the automatic assumption due to poor historical education is that when one accused something or someone of being fascist, they are accusing them of wanting to mass exterminate Jews. Because that is the extent of what they understand as "fascism".

Fascism has existed in South America, Africa, Asia, Europe etc. Fascism isn't this narrow set of political parties that just existed in a couple of countries in Europe in the 1920s through the 40s.


And one other thing. Fascism has no bounds based on ethnicity or religion. The Likud party is fascist to its core and it's a Jewish ethnosupremacist party. Being Jewish doesn't prevent someone from supporting fascism.

 

I don't dismiss drawing parallels or arguing that the rise of Fascism in the first half of the 20th century is rooted in the same psychology as the rise of right-wing populism today. I linked to this article previously that discussed this from the POV of a preeminent scholar of fascism:

Is It Fascism? A Leading Historian Changes His Mind. - The New York Times

But even this scholar who sees there is truth to the label confesses: “I still think it’s a word that generates more heat than light, ... It’s kind of like setting off a paint bomb.”

My view is consistent with his. We should be cautious about throwing around labels like "fascist" in a non-scholarly setting. The meaning behind such a label is usually not communicated properly.

 

I think this is capitulating to right wing framing that does leg work for the advancement of fascism.

Now let me be clear. Telling a 70 year old grandpa that they are a fascist who watches like a hour of Fox News nightly who doesn't have strong political views but still supports the "vibes" of the MAGA movement from the sheer fact that it's the most popular conservative movement in America currently is not productive and is in bad taste. It's the same energy as a angry 18 year old atheist trying to convince their 80 year old grandma who is fearing their own mortality because they are at that age where that is normal that God doesn't exist. You just never come out of that as the good person in that exchange.

But that isn't what is happening here. Insincere right wing propaganda has labeled any observational conclusion that someone is seeing a fascist movement in America rising to prominence as "the left labels everything they disagree with as fascist".

It's bad faith framing on their part and I think it's a bad idea to capitulate that framing.

 

If I did not read the D&D board, how would I know that Ukraine invaded Russia and Zelenskyy was a dictator?

 

Concerning loaded terms in discourse.

For 25 years I heard the term "communist" or "socialist" for every single prominent Democrat politician.

There was very little discussion that the term was inappropriate or offensive.

None of this is new.

I think the Democrat's invoking Nazi isn't a winning strategy though.

As for fascism - a nicer way of saying it is nationalist, and I guess the most popular analog would be populist.

There are a lot of elements of fascism that exist in MAGA. It is also why there are some that are so deeply connected to Trump.

Time will tell what ultimately happens - but I think a certain level of discomfort should exist with those that are agnostic to the political party loyalties.

 

While things get heated, and the poo starts flying it can be depressing, fun and at times funny. The reality is some people are more keyboard warriors than anything else and would not act like this in real life, at least I hope so.

I have trumpers in my family and we have simply chosen to not talk about it, even at Xmas when my niece got my dad a trump mug and we all had a nervous laugh LOL. My niece and her husband are CONSERVATIVE and vote GOP down ballot, her husband is just the nicest young man and would give you the shirt off his back and I love them both, there good people who I hang out with all the time. I imagine the majority of all of us would be cool to sit and have a beer and watch a game, I have just become smart enough to not talk about politics, I am not going to change your mind, and you will not change mine. I have voted for both sides and will continue to do so as needed, I hate the extremes though and they will not last when it comes time to vote..............the current admin will turn many folks who don't normally vote to come out and vote which in my opinion, voting should be something EVERYONE does. IMO the lower class is about to get fu**** over the next 4 years......................this is just the tip of the iceberg

 

I haven't gotten tired of it somehow. The ignore function is essential though for avoiding getting into personal clashes, and to filter out material that is a waste of your time. As someone else has said, sincerity is litmus test. It's easier (but not automatic) when you know the person your arguing with is at least arguing in good faith. I know I won't be changing anyone's mind, and it's not like I will do an about-face either. But I learn things and it can shape my thinking. I learn from other posters and also as I put some form to my own thoughts by writing them down.

 

Mirrors my thoughts.
Well said.

 

I would be curious who the most ignored poster around here is?
I'm not a fan of ignoring people but i'm getting closer

 

Believe it or not... I come to the DD to...

1. ...read posts from those who have dissenting opinions. I try to understand their perspectives and decide if I believe them or share the same priorities.
2. ...read posts from those who have similar opinions to mine. This helps me more deeply understand and support my own perspectives
3. ...share my opinions and perspectives in the hopes that others can understand. Sadly, this does not happen often.

I do not like the name-calling and degrading that goes on. I have, on occasion, called others names, but only in my defense when I've been called a name, and I don't like to.

...and I don't like being labeled a "Trumper" or "MAGA" etc. There are many things about Trump that I don't like and I don't agree with, while there are other things that he does that I vehemently agree with.

...And I don't expect to change someone to my side. I don't think we should be taking sides against each other. We are united. Indivisible. We should be working together.

 

Understand something.

Good empathetic people don't like working and uniting with humans who express glee about deporting 20 million humans.

This is what people mean be insincerity. You know very well that any support of Trump means you are incapable of being a unifier as Trump inherently to his core is a divider who bases his entire political charm on hating ideoligical opponents.

You know any words of being united coming from someone like you who defend MAGA constantly is feckless because you know your takes are inherently divisive to its core.

 

Has to be tinman

 

I lurk here to find what batshit crazy talking points the right are spewing since I don't use twitter or watch foxnews.
Puts into context the type of crazy I might run into the real world.

Edit: To the OP, there is no political debate anymore when one side has turned into a cult.

 

Half of the D&D content vanishes if you put him on ignore

 

@Salvy
@ROXRAN
@pgabriel
@RB713

 

I hardly ever talk politics in real life

before the deplorable MAGA movement, Democrat vs republican was mainly just a difference of opinion to me…now it’s a difference in morals

a lot of these MAGA are vile

just the other day I saw one talking about how we need to do away with Medicaid because the majority of people that are on it are lazy and don’t want to work…We’re supposed to debate this? Aside from the stupidity and constant lies, there’s just an evilness with people like that

 

Hi