[Clutchfans Game Thread] Kings @ Rockets 10/16 11:00pm (Central)

Hey, F4P,

I actually noticed that too. The "boxing out" seemed to be non-existent. We were "reaching" for rebounds, instead of "grabbing them." We do need some athletic long-armed-rebounder/defender types (AK47?) to help in this. Posey would have been nice to still have.

As far as the offense. It was night and day. This wasn't a max-effort game. So, I do see more good things as the season goes on. Increased "talent" will always be a desire for our team. But the smoother offense I saw last night was an indicator that we have smart players that can actually execute the plays.

There's just a better command while these players on on the court. And this is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Well sure JVG didn't craft a better offense. He's running pretty much the same stuff he was running last year, but with better personnel. It will still be a big improvement over last year. Howard has already shown me that he can pass much better than Mo, and obviously Cato. And I think T-Mac exhibited a lot of vision and ability in just the past three games. Adding those two guys into the starting lineup will help our offense a lot. It won't be a new offense, but it will be a better offense.

Our offense will be better, and I'm not worried about our defense under JVG. His defensive schemes just plain work. The only thing I'm worried about right now is controlling the defensive boards. It's up to Yao to improve in that area. If he can start pulling down boards with authority, then this team will start collecting rings just like that. If Yao can't do that, then the team to start gang rebounding like crazy if they want to contend.

T-mac should be able to board as well as Steve did, and JJ will be the same. You'll lose a bit from Cato to Howard, so that's why getting Sura back healthy is so important. He can fill in a lot of the gaps in terms of production. Passing, rebounding, pushing the ball on the break are all things that the Rox could use from Sura. If only he was a better shooter, he'd be perfect for this team. Any team for that matter.

 

On the money. And it should only get better. In Frances for Prez you are simply dealing with the "gee I miss Steve crowd," not an objective analysis. It is going take a while for the "good ole days" of .500 basketball to pass away. As for me, gee I don't miss "brainless" basketball AT ALL!

 

Francis 4 prez: when i said the offense looked different, i didn't mean they were running a different offense. they are running the exact same offense as last year. the difference is that the personnel is much improved and able to execute the offense correctly and more efficiently. i don't think the product that you saw on the court last year (dribbling out the shot clock etc.) was by plan.

 

I think people seem to mistake hops with athleticism way too much. Steve could jump, for sure, but a real indication of how athletic he was is his on the ball defense - he was one of the slowest lateral defenders in the league, pinpointing his athletic shortcomings.

If we're talking about defensive box-outs, I think you are right. They seem to be a weaker rebounding team.

But I still fail to see athleticism as a problem, especially in comparison to last year. Since Jackson, Taylor and Yao are the same, just compare Steve, Cat, Cato to TMac, Lue, Howard - I think it is even, especially considering how poor Steve was athletically at defending.

 

well then we agree. but i still feel it's an inefficient offense that will hold us back even with better fitting talent. and that's the part i don't like.


i still feel like this offense won't get us to 50 wins even with the good defense that should be expected from jvg. better personnel with the same system doesn't excite me is all.

man, you really pegged me there. spot on. (insert emoticon that i hate with a passion)

 

i'm speaking in general here. steve and cat were an extremely athletic duo. cato was fairly athletic. jackson wasn't and yao is anti-athletic.

now we've added tmac who is amazing but barely ahead of steve in terms of pure athleticism (if at all, it's just at 6'9 his athleticism is more absurd) and we're starting ward, who isn't on the same planet as cuttino. and howard versus cato is definitely going to hurt. he won't get rebounds in traffic, or block shots, or get us cheap baskets on alley oops. that's not to say he's worse than cato, but from an athletic standpoint he most certainly is.

lue is fast but hardly anything great for rebounding or physical play.


lue
ward
jj
mo
juwan
yao
dikembe

i don't see how any of those guys can be described as athletic. and they are our main players aside from tmac. that to me is a very soft and unathletic team. we may improve as a team, but it will be in spite of athleticism and because of other factors.

 

I agree with francis 4 prez.

We traded athleticism for brains. We are a less athletic team, but a much smarter, better passing, knows how to run a fastbreak team.

Just because you can dunk over 2 people doesn't make you good at fast breaks. If you're dumb as a rock, most of the time you will probably run straight into the defender on a 3v1 break for the charge, as evident from last year.

Quite frankly, i don't care if we are the LEAST athletic team league. Like francis 4 prez said, we can be soft and unathletic, but as long as we're a better team than last year, thats all that matters.

 

Players make the offense efficient or inefficient. If JVG setups plays, and the players have trouble executing them. Then, that's what I call inefficient. This will NOT happen this year. If I can't convince you, oh well. You'll just have to wait and see.

Smarter players + same offense* = Better record

Now, I say, "same offense*" with a slight caveat. It’s not quite the “same.” Because JVG will make slight changes for the new players he has. That being McGrady, Ward, Lue and Howard. These players can do a lot of things differently than Francis (not turn the ball over), Cat (iso happy, no pass), Ward/Lue (setup the offense) and Cato (hit a 5-15ft shot) could do. So, with his new found ability (i.e. brains). JVG will expand the offense much more than he was able to in the past.

This could not be done before. We *had* to keep it simple for Francis.

 

It seems like judging players on pure athleticism is what led to a bunch of un-athletic guys embarassing us in the olympics.

What good is athleticism, if you can't make a 10 foot jumper? or run a fast break (see Francis/Mobley), or find a 7'6'' player under the basket?

I for one was excited to see the fast breaks this preseason.

 

so is it your position that there are no poor offenses and no poor offensive coaches, only poor offensive players? why do we even have coaches then?



every coach says great things and has plans that look good on paper, but some coaches offense's actually work on the court better and they implement offenses conducive to their players' talents better. so far jvg hasn't convinced me, here and in nyc, that he can do that.

 

how could you possibly take from my statement that that's what i was doing?

i said our team is less athletic than last year and that it may be a problem for us this year. do you disagree? if so, how?


second, do you believe athleticism is not at all important to the success of a team? if so, why not. do you feel being able to get rebounds is not a worthwhile goal?

 

I guess you haven't been paying attention. JVG is a fine offensive coach. If you don't think so, prove me otherwise.

http://bbs.clutchcity.net/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85245

 

1. Whether our team is less athletic than last year is arguable, but for arguments sake i will agree with you, since as seen in my previous post, i don't really care.

2. Of course athleticism is important, but the premise of the whole topic was that we improved as a team, in spite of athleticism, like you said. So although athleticism may not necissarily = success 100% of the time, improving as a team does.

I don't care HOW we improve, but if we did improve, then i don't care what we lost to improve. Clearly you think we are soft and unathletic, but then you say we are a better team. So whats the problem? Is being a better team not a worthwhile goal?

 

"NO poor offenses" and "NO poor offensive coaches?" and "only poor offensive players?" Why is it all or nothing with you? Did I say that those things didn't exist (absolutism). It's just that JVG is NOT one of them. He's an excellent coach; pupil of Pat Riley. Playing run-and-gun offense all day long is not a shoe-in for a championship. You need many things to win; star talent, smart role players, chemistry, shooters, rebounders...and the list goes on....it's the coaches job to put all that together and make it all work.

Of course he hasn't convinced you. He hasn't had this team without Francis yet. And this is the most talented team (youthful too) that JVG has ever coached (an aging Ewing is not what I call the "most talented" just in case you think so). You'll be forced to recognize this as the season goes on.

This will be addressed as the season goes on. Trades can be made you know? So can FA pickups. You act like the "sky is falling" or something.

As far as this "athleticism" kick you are on...why don't you suggests some solutions, instead of complaining about it. Come on....you can do it. I'm waiting for you to say something absurd like "We need to trade Yao for Francis so we can get more * athleticism*."

Give us some suggested acquisitions mid-season or next year. Hey, I'm all for AK47! Sign him up!

 

See, I think this is where you start running into contradictions - Lue may not have the size of Francis, but imo he is just as athletic, if not more so. He is quicker up and down the court and definitely quicker laterally.

The problem is from an effectiveness standpoint, it doesn't really matter, because Steve's athleticism, combined with his size, made it much more effective in the NBA for him.

I'm certainly not arguing that this year's Rockets are more athletic than last years. But on the same page - definitely. You may have been more impressed with Cato's jumping and rebounding athleticism. I'm more impressed with Howard's back to the basket post-up game athleticism (if you don't think that requires athleticism, you never watched Hakeem). You were more impressed with Steve's jumping and rebounding athleticism, I am more impressed with Ward's and Lue's lateral defensive athleticism.

Cuttino was the biggest loss in the trade, imo, because, though he wasn't SUPER-FREAK jumping athletic, he was super quick up and down the court, above average laterally, had a developing post up game, above average jumper and rebounder, etc.

In either case, my contention is that the 2004 Rockets are just as athletic, only in different ways.