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Plane crash near Washington DC

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by AroundTheWorld, Jan 29, 2025.

  1. basso

    basso Member
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    to underscore my point, only the controller could see both the trajectory and that they were at the same altitude.

    there are probably multiple factors, but responsibility for synthesizing everything that was going on, rests with the controller. to be clear, I don't think there was anything unique about the traffic/flight patterns. the controllers probably see some version of this virtually every night.

    the controller's mistake was believing the helo pilot, contra what their screen said.
     
  2. Two Sandwiches

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    And the fact that he was overworked likely contributed significantly to this.


    This isn't the only field that being overworked and understaffed has cost lives in, but it does. You can circle this back to the United CEO, healthcare in general, and just about any other industry.

    It's happening everywhere. Dollars and profits over safety, care, and mental health. The corporate way. 'Murica
     
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  3. Sajan

    Sajan Member

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    This.
    Helo pilots words were contradicting what the controller was seeing...
     
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  4. BenignDMD

    BenignDMD Member

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    Wow. I don’t know you and never want to. Which of the many genders shat in your fuc*ing Rainbow lucky charms this morning?
     
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  5. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    Well, we can only hope he was wishing the other poster a fun, colorful outing with a safe landing in the water.
     
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  6. AroundTheWorld

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  7. basso

    basso Member
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    some more on this in the Times this morning:


    The duties of handling air traffic control for helicopters and for planes at Reagan National on Wednesday night were combined before the deadly crash. That left only one person to handle both roles, according to a person briefed on the staffing and the report.

    Typically one person handles both helicopter and plane duties after 9:30 p.m., when traffic at Reagan begins to lessen. But the supervisor combined those duties sometime before 9:30, and allowed one air traffic controller to leave, according to the person, who was not authorized to speak publicly about the investigation into the crash. The crash occurred just before 9 p.m.
    much more at the link.
     
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  8. basso

    basso Member
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    more from the article linked above

    https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/31/business/dc-plane-helicopter-crash-cause.html


    Clues emerging from the moments before the deadly collision Wednesday night between an Army helicopter and an American Airlines passenger jet suggest that multiple layers of the country’s aviation safety apparatus failed, according to flight recordings, a preliminary internal report from the Federal Aviation Administration, interviews with current and former air traffic controllers and others briefed on the matter.

    The helicopter flew outside its approved flight path. The American Airlines pilots most likely did not see the helicopter close by as they made a turn toward the runway. And the air traffic controller, who was juggling two jobs at the same time, was unable to keep the helicopter and the plane separated.

    <snip>

    The duties of handling air traffic control for helicopters and for planes at Reagan National on Wednesday night were combined before the deadly crash. That left only one person to handle both roles, according to a person briefed on the staffing and the report.

    Typically one person handles both helicopter and plane duties after 9:30 p.m., when traffic at Reagan begins to lessen. But the supervisor combined those duties sometime before 9:30, and allowed one air traffic controller to leave, according to the person, who was not authorized to speak publicly about the investigation into the crash. The crash occurred just before 9 p.m.

    While there were no unusual factors causing a distraction for controllers that night, staffing was “not normal for the time of day and volume of traffic,” the preliminary F.A.A. report said.

    On Thursday, five current and former controllers said that the controller in the tower should have more proactively directed the helicopter and the plane to fly away from each other. Instead, the controller asked the helicopter to steer clear of the plane.

    Some of the current and former controllers said the darkness could have made it more difficult for pilots to accurately gauge the distance between themselves and other aircraft. Some wondered whether the helicopter pilots mistook a different plane for the American jet.

    The helicopter was supposed to be flying closer to the bank of the Potomac River and lower to the ground as it traversed the busy Reagan National airspace, four people briefed on the incident said.

    Before a helicopter can enter any busy commercial airspace, it must get the approval of an air traffic controller. In this case, the pilot asked for permission to use a specific, predetermined route that lets helicopters fly at a low altitude along the bank on the east side of the Potomac, a location that would have let it avoid the American Airlines plane.

    The requested route — referred to as Route 4 at Reagan National — followed a specific path known to the air traffic controller and helicopter pilots. The helicopter confirmed visual sight of a regional jet and the air traffic controller instructed the helicopter to follow the route and fly behind the plane.

    But the helicopter did not follow the intended route, the people briefed on the matter said.

    Rather, it was above 300 feet, when it was supposed to be flying below 200 feet, and it was at least a half-mile off the approved route when it collided with the commercial jet.

    A senior Army official urged caution in making any assessments until the helicopter’s black box could be recovered and analyzed, along with other forensic data.

    The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the ongoing inquiry, said the Black Hawk’s pilots had flown this route before, and were well aware of the altitude restrictions and tight air corridor they were permitted to fly in near the airport.

    <snip>


    The controller who was handling helicopters in the airport’s vicinity Wednesday night was also instructing planes that were landing and departing from its runways. Those jobs are typically assigned to two controllers, rather than one, the internal F.A.A. report said. This increases the workload for the air traffic controller and complicates the job.

    Controllers can also use different radio frequencies to communicate with pilots flying planes and pilots flying helicopters. While the controller is communicating with pilots of the helicopter and the jet, the two sets of pilots may not be able to hear each other.

    As the passenger jet’s pilots were approaching the airport, they were asked by air traffic control to pivot the landing from one runway to another, according to the F.A.A. report, a person briefed on the incident and audio recordings of conversations between an air traffic controller and the pilots. That request may have introduced another complication shortly before the collision.

    The American Airlines flight had originally been cleared by the traffic control tower to land on the airport’s main runway, called Runway 1. The controller then asked the pilot to land on a different, intersecting runway instead — Runway 33 — which the pilot agreed to do.

    That decision, according to the person who was briefed on the incident and four other people who are familiar with the airport’s air traffic, happens routinely when regional jets like the American Airlines aircraft are involved. The decision may also have been made to help keep air traffic moving efficiently by not clogging the main runway, the people said.

    Runway 33 is shorter, requiring intense focus from pilots landing their planes. The last-minute change raised questions within the F.A.A. on Thursday morning about congestion at Reagan National, the person briefed on the event added.

    Robert Isom, American’s chief executive, said at a news conference on Thursday that the pilots of the passenger plane involved in the crash had worked for PSA Airlines, an American subsidiary, for several years, The captain had been employed by the airline for almost six years, while the first officer had worked there for almost two years.

    “These were experienced pilots,” he said.
     
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  9. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
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    Interesting and informative breakdown. Go internet.
     
  10. IBTL

    IBTL Member

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    That's definitely how I took it.
     
  11. IBTL

    IBTL Member

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    Exactly. It stinks.
     
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  12. AroundTheWorld

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  13. AroundTheWorld

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  14. Two Sandwiches

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    I'm no Blackhawk pilot, but it seems like they could have avoided this, no?
     
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  15. AroundTheWorld

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    It's crazy, they basically flew straight into it.

    Some former Blackhawk pilot responded:







    The conversation goes on there, with people asking this pilot more questions.
     
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  16. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Not an easy thing to do evidently
    but
    They been making it look easy for so long

    Rocket River
     
  17. Two Sandwiches

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    Great info.
     
  18. Rocket River

    Rocket River Member

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    Jan 20th: FAA Director was fired.
    Jan 21st: Air traffic controller hiring frozen.
    Jan 22nd: Aviation safety advisory committee disbanded.
    Jan 28th: Buyout/retirement demand sent to existing employees.
    Jan 29th: First American midair collision in 16 years.

    Rocket River
     
  19. AroundTheWorld

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  20. Sajan

    Sajan Member

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    WTF. this is a normal thing around there??
    The damn helo seem to be playing with fire every day..


     
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