Man plows into crowd on Bourbon Street killing 10 and injuring 35

That's a fair answer. Well said

 

Ag'reed.

 

Your thinking not mine

 

I agree. But the same arguments for not talking to police to avoid statements being used against you (even when you’re innocent) could apply here, no? And the more information given to the police about the mosque, the more the mosque becomes part of the investigation which then attracts media attention.

I’m looking at it from the standpoint of — IF the mosque was totally innocent in this affair (which it seemed was the scenario you were willing to consider) would they want their members to cooperate with the police? I think the answer is probably still no, for fear of being scapegoated by the police and (eventually) the media.

 

I was actually agreeing with you when I wrote that - as it seems that's what you were saying in so many words. How else would someone join ISIS?

Internet has to play a big role.

I think radicalization is a process by which disenfranchised individuals who are lonely and in pain are preyed upon by those who see they can be used. Slowly they get brainwashed.

 

But, who are the ones that would be preying upon these people? They would also have to be radicalized and hold enough power, knowledge and influence to brainwash others and, in many cases, financially fund the terrorist operatives.

It is possible the internet plays no role at all in some cases. We sometimes forget the net has only been around 25-30 years and there were, obviously, many terror networks operating around the globe pre-internet.

The nineteen 9/11 perpetrators for example-
Mohammed Atta studied architecture at Cairo University, graduating in 1990, and pursued postgraduate studies in Germany at the Hamburg University of Technology. In Hamburg, Atta became involved with the al-Quds Mosque where he met Marwan al-Shehhi, Ramzi bin al-Shibh, and Ziad Jarrah, together forming the Hamburg cell. Together, after pledging their lives to martyrdom, they became the leaders of the 11 September attacks. In late 1999, al-Shehhi, Atta, Jarrah, and bin al-Shibh traveled to terrorist training camps in Afghanistan and met with Osama bin Laden who recruited the four Hamburg cell members for the attacks in the United States.

Others on this bbs have repeated the lonely, poor, disenfranchised and oppressed reasoning that some of these people turn to terrorism, but much of the time that is not the case. Osama Bin Laden is just one of many examples. As far as home-grown terrorists, that is not the case much of the time, either. In almost every case, it is due to ideological extremism.

Unfortunately, it can be easy for some Islamic scholars, imams and adherents to use parts of religious texts to radicalize someone (rich or poor, lonely or social) who is impressionable and not firm in their morals and beliefs. Or, on the other hand, it is easy to for them to urge into violent action, someone who IS firm in their beliefs in jihad and militant Islam. Some people who argue against this have never read the Q'uran or the hadiths, which can easily be interpreted by these people and used in such a way to promote terrorism, jihad, oppression of civil rights, etc. I am sorry, but this is unfortunately true even though it may not be pc amongst some people or even fair for moderate, peaceloving Muslims.

Anyway, this is a long-winded response reiterating that there is usually more than long distance, anonymous internet communication that goes into much of the radicalization, planning and carrying out of an action. More than likely, this particular terrorist, Jabbar, did have local, personal contacts and relationships that influenced his actions and bolstered his extremist ideology. Perhaps not. Hence, the reason a mosque, church or organization should not attempt to silence its members and impede an investigation. There could be a cell meeting and operating within said mosque or organization without the knowledge of its imam or leaders.

 

I'm trying to find someone who claims guys like the New Orleans terrorist or Osama are "victims of oppression" lashing out.

Osama wrote a god damn letter saying gay dudes ****ing is why civilians in skyscrapers should be murdered. Dude was unhinged. Same with this real estate agent.


The arguments you refer to from leftists are for groups like Hamas and Hezbollah. Not Al Qeada and ISIS. Those aren't groups created out of oppression. In fact those groups organized and were strengthened by US state backed interests because these guys were fighting the commies.

People join ISIS because they want to have sex slaves.

People join Hamas because they have traumatic experiences of losing loved ones in their lives and that shapes their world view.

You confidence in your conviction of beliefs here stems from taking the worst possible form of opposing arguments aka strawmanning

 

Islam is evil. The mosques are like cancerous tumors. People get poisoned with hate there.

 

There's a lot of research into this - and groups like ISIS have people who recruit - they build an army after all. They know how to get people into their ranks and be fervently loyal. The vast majority of those in ISIS were taken in as children or radicalized through brainwashing. They do it locally, and then expand their operations through the internet.

There are cases with even non-Muslims are radicalized - white Christian girls being recruited to be wives of senior ISIS leaders. American girls.

How do they do it? They find people without friends - who feel unwanted and unloved, and shower them with love and affection and positive reinforcement. They become their world and fill their lives with meaning. And slow build sympathy for their cause and how it's being misunderstood etc etc. And the individual buys in for the same reason a person buys into what their spouse beliefs. They are indoctrinated and reprogrammed. Humans are machines. People can and are reprogrammed. And yes, you can do it through the internet.

 

Curious. If someone said "Judiasm is evil" would you consider that anti-semetic?

 

I would give consideration to a claim any ideology/religion/dogma/political movement is evil after considering the evidence.

Are you saying by claiming something is a religion is cannot possibly be evil? Nonsense.

 

Islam as a religion is practiced by well over a billion people. There is significant diversity in the beliefs and practices of those people. Large numbers of them are respectable and decent and also very devout, and they would attribute their values to Islam. Seems strange I need to point this out on a Houston Rockets board.

I’d more receptive to the idea that religious fundamentalism and dogmatism that condones violence and espouses illiberal value systems are evil.

 

Seems strange we're talking about politics and religion in the D&D? How long have you been posting here? 19 years?

How many Muslim majority countries have representative government? How many people, men and women, are denied the franchise?

How many Muslim majority countries have out law homosexuality with punishments ranging from prison to the death penalty?

How many Muslim majority countries deny woman equality?

How many Muslim majority countries have the death penalty for apostasy?

How many Muslim majority countries still, at least culturally, practice slavery?

Now lets compare the ills of Christian or Jewish majority countries.

 

The greatest player in franchise history is a devout Muslim. He attributes that to being a better person and teammate.

 

I was alluding to the fact that the most famous and esteemed Rockets player was a devout Muslim and considerably matured when he became more religious.

 

Good for him.

I would be happy to not discuss Islam but its the ideology subjugating and denying basic human rights to billions of innocent people around the globe.

Needs to be addressed.

 

We've been wrestling with the issue of secular integration as a multiethnic society since 9/11 and we still haven't found a "decent" answer against oppressive or fundamentalist fanatics exploiting the principle of free speech and worship against the host country. More surveillance and reacting after the fact aren't real solutions, especially when reporting orgs are now repackaging events to blunt public reaction.

Moral relativism is bullshit if you believe in protecting women, children and the disadvantaged. This goes beyond giving everyone a fair shake.

Dems have mostly rolled over on the issue where their big tent is more a big blanket you put on birds to make then sleep.

 

I think it is inaccurate to call that ideology “Islam”. Clearly it is related to Islam and is “Islamic”, in the same way that repressive religious fundamentalism in Europe during the Middle ages was related to Christianity (were “Christian”). I also don’t think it would have been accurate to say “Christianity is evil” back then, though non-Christians who were persecuted by Christians may have felt differently.

I’m not saying elements of these religions shouldn’t be criticized. Or that certain practices or laws based on common interpretations of the religion shouldn’t be judged to be evil (such as repression of various minority groups). I just don’t find it constructive to say “Islam” (or, for that matter, “Christianity” or “Judaism”) is evil. Instead of constructively criticizing certain practices, it effectively alienates anyone who self identifies as a Muslim. Totally counter-productive.

 

Every ideology/religion/movement has objectively "good" parts to it.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't identify them as evil when taken in the main.

The Nazis had anti-smoking campaigns, the Nazis had environmentally/conservationist friendly programs, Hitler was a vegan, loved animals and abhorred smoking. You can promote some good stuff and still be categorized as evil.

Does Islam have some good stuff in there? Yea, of course.

But I am looking around the world and seeing consistently in almost every Muslim majority country the denial of basic human rights.

How many hundreds of millions are suffering under the subjugation of Islam right now? It's horrific and if a Christian introduced any similar measure in the West there would be no shortage of leftists delivering the most vile and profanity laced rebukes.

But when it comes to Islam/Muslims it's more of an "aw shucks" reaction from the leftists in the West.

 

Would you agree with the statement "Christianity was evil" in the year 1600?