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At least two women in Georgia died after they couldn't access medical cares

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by Amiga, Sep 16, 2024.

  1. jchu14

    jchu14 Member

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    I don't know if there is a medically clear definition of a dead embryo and one that is being terminated by abortion pill but not yet discharged. The abortion pill prevents the thickening of the uterine lining, but I don't know if it actually 'kills' the embryo.

    The anti abortion Georgia law defines an 'unborn child' as a "member of the species Homo sapiens at any stage of development who is carried in the womb." and has 'embryonic or fetal cardiac activity'.

    So maybe it is not so clear to the doctors/hospital lawyers if the embryo is still considered to be in 'any stage of development' after taking abortion pill but before discharge. Maybe the embryo still had repetitive cardiac activity and the doctors were waiting to it to stop?

    This woman died within a month of the GA law went into effect. So hospitals may still be trying to figure out exactly what the boundary is.
     
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  2. jchu14

    jchu14 Member

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    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/318...ipants from,: ClinicalTrials.gov, NCT03774745.

    Here's an extremely small study (study paused for safety concerns) on whether taking Progesterone can reverse the effect of Mifeprestone.

    In the placebo group (women took Mifeprestone, but did not take progesterone), 2 of the 5 women still showed gestational cardiac activity after 2 weeks of taking Mifeprestone.

    So it's very possible that the woman in Georgia still exhibited gestational cardiac activity which would make the operation an abortion.
     
  3. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    I get that but as I stated the issue is a doctor's judgement. I appreciate your knowledge and educating me.

    Again doctor's receive their license from the state. That has to play a role in their evaluation of whether a pregnancy is life threatening

    Again life threatening is a subjective term I think the fact a doctor is certified by a state would play a role in any judgement

    I wonder what made these doctors eventually proceed. All that being said I'm no doctor or lawyer and do not presume to be judgemental but again I think their delay will eventually be called into question
     
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  4. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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  5. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Was just gonna post that the abortion clinic seems liable
     
  6. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    This study is heavy pain medication prescribed focused. That's not the end all be all in accessing quality of care.

    You should stop linking Blacks and Hispanics. I wanted to post that yesterday

    • Asian: 84.5 years
    • White: 77.5 years
    • Hispanic: 80 years
    • Black: 72.8 years
    • AIAN: 67.9 years
    https://www.google.com/search?q=us+...icket-us-rvc3&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
     
  7. Reeko

    Reeko Member

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    republicans did this
     
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  8. Commodore

    Commodore Member

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  9. adoo

    adoo Member

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    At least two women in Georgia died after they couldn't access medical cares



    [​IMG]
     
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  10. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ge...ation-states-abortion-law-death-amber-thurman

    Georgia doctors speak out to challenge misinformation on state's abortion law, death of Amber Thurman

    In my understanding, is, this baby was already in demise. There was no reason that it had anything to do with whether she could have a D&C or not. That's actually irrelevant to the baby's life because the baby's already gone," McCormick said. "If the heartbeat stopped it's not about this law. Remember, it has nothing to do with this law at that point. It has everything to do with doing the best care for the woman."
     
  11. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    That's pretty self-serving and an attempt to avoid blame for their actions. It also shows them doubling down on a law that caused unncessary death, and they will continue to do so.

    D&C is classified as an abortion and was outlawed in Georgia by the law that these two Republican representatives, who are also doctors, signed into law. The exception (that it's not considered an abortion) is that there must be no heartbeat. Until then, Georgia law can imprison doctors, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the law they signed. Because it was classified as an abortion, doctors were too afraid to provide the obviously necessary medical care, as there is no clear-cut definition or standard for what constitutes an emergency.

    No laws or courts have yet defined what constitutes an emergency (the Texas Supreme Court also avoided doing so), leaving it to doctors' judgment. It's simple logic that doctors risk their hospitals being sued for being overly cautious rather than facing jail time.

    That GA law has just recently been blocked.

    https://www.atlantanewsfirst.com/2024/09/30/judge-strikes-down-georgias-abortion-ban/

    ATLANTA, Ga. (Atlanta News First) - A Fulton County Superior Court judge has struck down Georgia’s ban on abortions at roughly six weeks, two years after the controversial law known as the “heartbeat bill” took effect.

    Judge Robert McBurney’s ruling allows the procedure to once again be performed after a doctor detects a fetal heartbeat.
     
    #51 Amiga, Oct 2, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2024
  12. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    Their argument seems to be the embryo was already deceased
     
  13. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    The definition they have is the presence of a heartbeat. A clump of cells that is not viable can still have a 'beat.' I don’t know if this case was clear-cut (with no beat at all), but my larger point is that you can easily imagine cases where a non-viable pregnancy has a 'beat,' and doctors are overly cautious about doing what they know is medically necessary.

    I edited my other post to add this part: No laws or courts have yet defined what constitutes an emergency (the Texas Supreme Court also avoided doing so), leaving it to doctors' judgment. It's simple logic that doctors risk their hospitals being sued for being overly cautious rather than facing jail time.
     
  14. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    I understand you're reacting to their defense of the law but they are addressing this situation in particular
     
  15. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    The FoxNews article mentioned that GA lawmakers are speaking out against "fearmongering." They aren't just addressing this situation; they are defending their law as a whole.

    This statement is simply a lie:

    “We never deny a woman an abortion because it's going to harm her in some way. She will always be protected,” McCormick, who previously served as the emergency department head during a Navy deployment in Afghanistan, said in an interview with Fox News Digital.

    This is also a mischaracterization at best. No one said there isn't an exception (in fact the ProPublica article stated the exceptions); rather, that the exception is not clear.

    “You have every right to an abortion, even with that heartbeat law,” he continued. “So, let’s make that very clear right now. When they say there are no exceptions, there’s never any law in any state where there are no exceptions. That doesn’t exist. That’s simply not the way it works. The mother's life is always protected. With that said, it doesn’t mean it’s easy to get an abortion just because you have a complication or because something goes wrong.”

    This is a judgment statement. His understanding is that the baby was already in demise. The report never clearly stated whether there was a "beat" or not. If you make that judgment but there was still a "beat," you risk jail time.

    “In my understanding, this baby was already in demise. There was no reason that it had anything to do with whether she could have a D&C or not. That’s actually irrelevant to the baby's life because the baby’s already gone,” McCormick said. “If the heartbeat stopped, it’s not about this law. Remember, it has nothing to do with this law at that point. It has everything to do with providing the best care for the woman.”

    These lawmakers simply ignore the real risks to women's health. This isn't a surprise to them—they have been informed about this. Doctors have spoken out against this and similar laws. They either choose to ignore these doctors or don’t care about women's health, or both.
     
    #55 Amiga, Oct 2, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2024
  16. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    But Rep. Rich McCormick, R-Ga., and state Rep. Mark Newton don't believe the law had anything to do with Thurman's death, but rather the complications allegedly caused by the abortion pills, as doctors may have waited too long to intercede.

    Let's not waste time debating this. Thurman's death raised the concerns and their argument is the removal of the embryo should not have been delayed.

    Regardless of the law a dead embryo is dead
     
  17. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    That's their belief, and the article wasn't clear if there was a "beat." This is a factual statement.

    Regardless, the fact that you have to wait until there isn't a "beat" or that it is classified as an "emergency" (which isn't clearly defined) is why women will suffer, and many have already suffered from TX to GA. Death is the most extreme outcome of these laws. Most of the women impacted by these laws have been harmed but have survived.
     
  18. pgabriel

    pgabriel Educated Negro

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    The Fox article is clearly stating the fetus was deceased
     
  19. Scarface281

    Scarface281 Member

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    There were two fetuses that were deceased (she had twins). The abortion worked. The pills worked. It was the after care that was the mess up. The speculation when the story first came out was the build up of tissue was amplified due to there being two human bodies forming in her versus one.

    It is very sad she lost her life, and Georgia isn't the best state for neonatal/maternity care, but this likely would have happened in any state.
     
    #59 Scarface281, Oct 2, 2024
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2024
  20. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    I was referring to the ProPublica article, which I don’t recall ever stating there was no 'heartbeat.' The Fox article quoted the opinion of two Georgia legislators: "In my understanding, this baby was already in demise."

    I think your argument is that this case isn’t relevant to the GA laws because of the Fox News article quoting those legislators. My point is that it self-serving for the lawmakers who passed these laws (I need more than their statement to accept it as a fact), and either way, the problem persists. It’s not just about instances of death; these laws have caused ongoing harm to women. Doctors are hesitant to perform medically necessary procedures due to these laws, leading to real, documented harm from Texas to Georgia.
     

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