I think most people would think it's harder to guard Hakeem than Shaq. Why would that be trolling? He doesn't have close to the foot speed to guard Hakeem and his counter moves. Plus Hakeem actually had a jumper and could pull up so you had to play for that as well. It's always easier to guard the guy who just tries to go through you and doesn't even have a threat of a jumper. You know exactly what he's going to do. I never said he could stop Shaq. But I don't think Shaq could stop his offense either, cuz no one really can.
“Y'all act like Shaq fouled out Vlade Divac all game. I think Jokic has a better chance of guarding Shaq than Hakeem. Jokic is massive.” I interpreted this as u saying that Jokic would defend Shaq better than Hakeem would defend Shaq because Jokic is massive
Lol I meant he could guard Shaq better than he can guard Hakeem. I can see how you read it differently
He will never eclipse Hakeem! He could win 10 rings. Different NBA with different rules and pressure to be the big man during a time when men were big.
The only advantages Jokic has on Dream are his passing skills and a better outside shot, but we don't know how good Dream's shot was since he played primarily on the post and block. It's not like he was bad at it, just didn't take enough shots. In a head to head matchup, Dream is still much better overall.
Better outside shot, better passing, better ball-handling. You can look at their FT percentages and get a good idea of how they compare as pure shooters.
I'm just not sure how you can come to that conclusion. He's currently averaging 20.9 points, 10.9 rebounds, 6.9 assists, 09. blocks, and 1.4 steals. Hakeem's career numbers: 21.8 points per game, 11.1 rebounds, 2.5 assists, 3.1 blocks, and 1.7 steals. Jokic has worked very hard to become a decent defender. Hakeem was an all-time great defender. And honestly, I can't even call Jokic the greatest offensive center of all-time because he's not close to guys like Kareem (in his highest scoring season he averaged 34.8 points and 4.6 assists to go along with 16.6 rebounds. They weren't tracking blocks and steals yet) and Wilt (who had a mind boggling career 31.1 points per game, 22.1 rebounds and 4.4 assists) and even Shaq scored so much more than him. He's definitely the best passing big of all-time, but that's as much as I can currently give him in the all-time conversation. Right now I'd definitely rank all of those guys higher than Jokic on the all-time list. And Joker better put in some serious work if he wants to jump any of those guys.
There's a lot more to offense than just PPG. Jokic is a top 5 passer/creator ever and you could argue he's as high as 2nd behind Magic. Someone like Nash at 19 ppg was a miles better and more impactful offensive player than Kobe's 35 or whatever he was averaging.
I understand that. I also understand that his ability to spread the floor adds value offensively that these other guys didn't. They weren't even asked to. But these guys were still averaging between like 3.5 and 4.5 assists per game, I don't see how an additional 2.5 to 3 assists per game beats an extra 5-10 points a game in production + another 4-5 stocks a game on the defensive side.
I gave you the nash vs kobe example, kobe averaged like 15 more ppg but was a much worse offensive player. Jokic also has been averaging around 12-14 assists per 100 possessions, kareem was around 4-6, so it’s a way bigger gap than just 2-3 assists. Shaq was in the 3-4 range mostly. Those guys assists pretty much were from kick outs to shooters, they were actually creating much. Jokic is more magic/lebron while also having the elite scoring ability.
What does Jokic need to do to eclipse Hakeem? I'd say another couple dozen donuts should do the trick.
Here is what you need to know about Hakeem - his peak was in the ballpark of the greatest two way player of all time - certainly among bigs he is that. I think where he loses the narrative a bit is that he wasn't that 'dominance in all categories' player but for a relatively small window of 3-5 years. He was always very good but where it gets more nuanced is where we talk about sustained dominance and while Hakeem was the greatest defender of his generation, he offensive game didn't quite have the same longevity in terms of domination in the ways some of his peers did like Robinson or Shaq did. ....I have a hard time thinking Jokic ever approaches anything resembling Hakeem's two way play in his peek but sure it's possible that Jokic eventually surpasses Hakeem in the net as the best big man if he can sustain some level of dominance but he would need to sustain the near triple double stats for several more years AND get his team some more titles. I'm not sure if being really good and having quite a few playoff losses in the semis is going to do it and it appears the salary cap continues to make it harder to built a contender around Jokic so he may be a victim of CBA trying to create more parity driven league.
The other thing you are missing is efficiency. Jokic is one of if not the most efficient players in nba history. He is doing all that and using way less possessions. He went on a 4 game stretch last year where he missed 5 total shots. It's ridiculous.
