I said he’d be in competition for third team NBA. Ewing was a Hall of Fame center who could score 25 with 12 boards and 3 blocks. Elite defense plus offensive fulcrum. Led a team whose second best player was John Starks to the Finals. Jokic is easily the best center in an era where there is little competition for that title. Dream faced and dominated an era of some of the best centers of all time.
Jokic is better offensively when you add the assist but Hakeem is light ahead on defense and there is ZERO chance Jokic ever bridges the gap defensively. The advantage on offense that Jokic has will never be enough to overcome the extreme difference on defense. Dream was the total package on both ends of the court and has been objectively proven to be the GOAT regardless of position(see below). In the history of basketball nobody has impacted the game on both ends of the court like Dream. Wemby, if he can stay healthy and develop his offensive game significantly, may have a chance to surpass him but Jokic never will due to the defensive differences. https://hickamsdictum.com/the-g-o-a-t-who-is-the-best-basketball-player-of-all-time-e43c7e53a9a7
Jokic is a Hall of Famer, and the best modern center. However - Olajuwon is at worst the second-best defensive player in NBA history, and probably the best ever. When you take into consideration that Olajuwon is also a top 5-10 all time offensive center, and it makes it all but impossible for Jokic to be as good as him. You can call me an old head - but I don't think Jokic is as good as Shaq or Kareem either. David Robinson at his peak was better as well, because he was an all-time great defender as well - Duncan was better as well. Defense is such an important part of the game for centers. Jokic has improved defensively, and is at worst the second best passer ever from the center position - but that doesn't make up for the defensive gulf between them.
Vehemently disagree w/ your assertion about offense. In this era of amoeba lineups and 210 lb guys guarding the 5 Dream's FG% would approach 65%. Indeed, Joker's assist numbers would be very difficult to exceed but the gravity Olajuwon would demand in the paint doesn't make that a clear-cut no for me either. And the absurdity of this bifurcated Off/Def premise is what I mean when I say it's not even a discussion unless we can era-adjust for Dream. Using Jokic's stats now vs Dream's stats then and not adjusting for what Dream's stats would look like in this era is a remarkable disservice to Dream and renders the comp void. Not kidding...I think Dream could average 38/15/7/5+2 stocks on 65% FG as a peak season.
Blocks and steal numbers are down league wide. There's no reason to think his would go up if he played in this era. Hakeem didn't have the same ball-handling and passing skills that Jokic has. The game has changed so much, and he probably would have been a different type of player if he played today. In his day, he took a lot of mid-range, turn-around shots that are high-difficulty. To his credit, he hit them at a decent clip, but they were still tough shots. There's no way he is shooting 65% from the field with that type of shot selection.
Steals are fair but I didn't inflate those above his career peak. Blocks are the contentious one and my assessment is basically that "at the rim + 3's" are the offensive mandate driving the league. He would be facing those shots at the rim from much smaller players than he's used to shutting down. So it's essentially a simple assumption predicated on 1) no less opportunities to contend shots at the rim + 2) achieving a slightly higher block % than historical for the reasons mentioned above (smaller guys, more layup attempts vs jumpshots to contest, etc) I don't want to be disrespectful or dismissive in my response but man I'm just going to tell you straight. When you're being guarded by 180 lb Chet Holmgren instead of 250 lb David Robinson, perhaps it would behoove Dream to back Chet down in to an easy foul, and 1, or just a simple layup or dunk as Chet is helpless after getting backed down under the rim. You alluded to Olajuwon perhaps being a different type of player but then suggest he would settle for the same 15-18 foot jumpers when - in the modern NBA - he would have hilarious mismatches for 1/4 or 1/3 of those possessions? I'm willing to listen w/ an open mind (not really, *** dem kids for thinking this is even a topic). But generic stuff isn't going to cut it. 38/15/7/5+2...not a hill I'm willing to die on but you're going to have to be more convincing than the above. EDIT: fwiw, some of the quotes from Kenny highlighting just how fiercely perfect Dream could adapt to this era - 01:52 "I have never seen a player that could double in the PNR and get back to his man on the roll and still block his shot" 02:30 to Dray "He's you on the defensive end, except 6'10" w/ Blake Griffin's athleticism; that's who he is" 04:40 "We would just shoot after practice and he would just do all guard moves...he would hit 5/8 3 from every spot....he never did it in the game b/c he could kill everyone on the block....his PNR lob to the rim would have been Blake Griffin like....he's an athletic Joel Embiid.....I've never seen anyone not outpowered by Shaq but him" You can choose to ignore that, take it all w/ enough grains to dilute....or just believe what your eyes saw. He was that guy. And he could be any guy in this era. Anyone. That's the point.
Wow, a voice of absolute reason amongst a sea of Morey-sucking metric-worshipping lunatics. Kudos, Sir. You are a champion among men. Once again the "metrics" (read: made up/estimated fake stats) fail to illustrate reality. Dream is so far above and beyond Jokic he can't even hope to match him, let along attempt to eclipse...
The floor is also much more spread out, and big men often have to guard opposing players on the perimeter which affects their ability to provide help at the rim. I just think averaging 5+ blocks in today's game is very improbable. If the argument is that Hakeem would have played very differently and therefore would put up X and Y numbers, I can't argue against that. I grant that he likely would have played differently, but no one knows what that would end up looking like. Comparing players from different eras will always run into this problem when you try to take a player and imagine what they'd be like in a different game. It's all based on speculation. Better to just compare their success against their respective competition, or accept they are both great and leave it at that.
Basketball is played on two sides of the court. Jokic will never sniff being a plus defender much less one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Jokic will never eclipse Hakeem.
He was better than ok on offense. He's the greatest post player ever. He won 2 championships without another great player. At least a great player in their prime and if u put him in this era with no hand checks he would probably average 40.
Why would he care about hand checks? His era was perfect for him, you either had to hard double or single cover, the help concepts were super simple because of illegal defense rules. His passing vision was very poor, so the reads being easy helped. There would be more guys he could just bbq one on one today but he would also have issues with all the different help defense that's legal today. If you wanna say hakeem was better then jokic overall that's totally fine, if you wanna say he was a better offensive player or even close, that's absurd.
I sincerely believe the construct of the argument is trivial. There is no era where Dream isn't lightyears ahead of Jokic defensively. And there are multiple era's where Dream would be - at least - comparable or potentially better than Jokic offensively. Showing deference to the politically correct argument of it's tough to comp across generations or they're both great is a bit of a copout and favors Jokic. If someone's actually trying to make a comparison - there is none. And that's not driven by the difficulty in translating across era's. It's driven by the fact you are trying to comp a 1 of 1 all-around generational player to a strictly offensive-savant in an era tailor-made for his offensive brilliance. Sorry not sorry if that's selling Joker short. The existence of this thread sells the Dream short so I guess what's good for the goose...
hey my g, largely ignored you thus far. How about shut the **** up tho. cool - thx. nuggets forum is anywhere but here btw. gg's
I really wish the people asking this were able to watch Hakeem in his prime. The most talented post maestro of all time just happened to be the most elite defensive lockdown of all time. He could guard 1-5 and top 10 in blocks and steals while dragging the Rockets to the finals. His passing is WAY underrated because of the era, but he made a lot of guys a ton of money because they were getting open 3s when no one cared about spacing the floor like that. He was so far ahead of his time. He'd be an absolute monster in any era, and he would absolutely eat Jokic alive. I think Jokic is a bonafide superstar with one of the most unique offensive games we've ever seen, but he's no Hakeem.
Early in his career I agree offensively Hakeem was not close but when he finally got shooters and learned to trust his teammates his passing got better. I'm not saying he was a better passer but he was far from poor. Players can barely put a hand on the offensive player now and if Dream had these rules could you imagine what he would do on the block now? You have a good point with the defensive rules though.
You definitely never saw Dream play. He's not a lumbering old school big man, part of the reason he was able to end not only the greatest shot blocker ever but also top 10 in STEALS is that his agility was second to none. With that athleticism, footwork and agility he'd redefine "3pt defense" the way he defined what great defense was. Your arguments are inherently flawed, he wasn't a lucky help defender, he was a dominant, smothering, agile, intelligent and phenomenal defender. His anticipation, his timing, his balance, nobody at the 4/5 position has come close.
