IMO, due to the "super-team" era, the only way Lebron could challenge Jordan for the GOAT title is if he had more rings (being the unquestioned leader in all of them) than Jordan. But fewer rings? And losing as a heavy favorite against peak Dirk and a team of high-end role players? Yeah, not happening.
Lebron is really hurt by playing his 1st 7 years on probably the worst, or at least a bottom 3 team in the league. Losing seven years is a lot to overcome, he was basically not eligible to compete for a title till his age 26 season. One he was off the worst team in the nba he made 9 finals in 10 years, winning 4 titles. Out of his 21 seasons, he's probably played on maybe 3 teams that would have gone above .500 without him. He has definitely never played on a team that could have won a playoff series though, unlike jordan who's team won 55 games and almost made the finals without him.
Lol super team era. Funny how bron gets blamed for everything yet none of his teams were anywhere close to being as good as Jordan's Bull, Birds Celtics or Magics lakers. Pippen and Jordan were 2 top 5 players in 90s on the same team. Same with Magic and Kareem, Shaq and Kobe. Everyone who thinks brons teams were soo stacked how come they could never make the playoffs without him, not even the Heat. Cleveland went from best to worst both times. As good as brons team were you can never say definitively that he ever played with another top 5 player on his team. But he sure did have to play against the 2nd and 3rd best players on the same team.. (KD and Steph). him leaving to get a good team around him shouldn't be a knock on his career more like a knock on how good he actually was. He basically made the playoffs in year 2 and his team was never able to adequately build a championship caliber roster around him. Plus no one is going to play in Cleveland.
I'm not impressed by his finals runs when they were the result of conspiring to form super-teams. The 2016 Miami Heat won a playoff series without Lebron. The 1994 Bulls added a bunch of pieces, and they didn't come close to reaching the finals.
So you're punishing Jordan for creating a star teammate in Pippen? The 2016 Heat reached the ECSF without Lebron. What's better...have a top 5 teammate or having two top 10 teammates? And Wade wasn't arguably top 5 in 2010? It's a knock on his resume since he's being compared to Jordan. Jordan developed Pippen. Lebron couldn't cultivate a #2 for himself.
You don’t have to be impressed, jordan’s best opponent in the east was who? Ewing? Reggie? People like to romanticize jordan but let’s not pretend he beat anybody to make the finals either
there is no planet outside the ones Gen Z ers live on where curry and lebron highlights is the extent they know of basketball, where Lebron is close to jordan lmao I would rather have Kobe between him and lebron. funny who actually ended up being the bigger cancer when career is done
League is so much better now. Wade has never been a top 5 player never even finished top 5 in MVP. Pippen on the other had finished 2nd when Jordan left. Pippen was the second best player in the East at the time and he was on Jordan's team. How did Jordan develop Pippen? More like Jerry Krause was an amazing GM and got Jordan the help he needed?and Jordan played in a big market which made it easier to attract talent. Did Jordan develop Rodman and Harper too? Bron has never come close to having two top 10 teammates. But he's played against them in the finals a lot. Stop looking at the names and compare them to the Eras. No chance Bosh was even close to top 10 in an ERA. These guys were all better than him at some point. Lebron, Durant, Kobe, Dirk, Tim Duncan, KG, Dwight Howard, Westbrook, Rose, Chris Paul, Carmelo, Gasol, Blake, Wade, Parker, Curry, Harden, AD, cousins, PG, Kawhi, Marc Gasol, ZBo, Jimmy, dame, John wall.list goes on and on. And Jordan did have two cuz I can make a case Rodman was a top 10 player. Jordans team was soo stacked in a weak era. You do know every other team only had 1 star like Hakeem's Rockets, millers pacers, Ewings Knicks. And the bulls had 3 top 10/15 players on it. Plus Ron Harper who was probably top 25 as well. They almost made the finals without Jordan. And no where in my post did I say anything discredit Jordan. I was just pointing out the inconsistencies of you Jordan fans. Every super star needs a team to win. What Lebron was able to do with trash teams was testament to how good he was. 3 of his finals appearances he had no business being there. Would Jordan have won if Hakeem left the Rockets and went to play in Utah? Because that's basically what happened to LeBron. He beat the greatest team ever then they went out and got the second best player in KD.
Shaq/Penny? Isiah Thomas/Dumars? Barkley? Mourning/T.Hardaway? But I don't understand your logic. Do you really think the situations are comparable? Jordan beat whoever was in front of him. Lebron had to team up with the best players in his conference to beat whoever was in front of them.
Wade finished 5th in MVP voting the year before Lebron joined the Heat. Then how do explain the 1994-95 Bulls struggling so much? If you can't acknowledge that Jordan developed Pippen, you're arguing in bad faith. It's common knowledge. Wade and Bosh weren't top 10 when the Heatles were formed? Stop looking at names and compare them to the eras. 2010. By 2010, KG had suffered that knee injury and was a shell of his former self. Westbrook was in his 2nd year. Rose was in his 2nd year. Chris Paul missed half the season. Blake Griffin missed the entire season. I'm not going through anymore names. By now, you should understand that your list is extremely flawed. Rodman didn't make the all-star team in any of his Bulls years, and you're going to argue he was a top 10 player? Good luck with that. You've forgotten a lot about that era, haven't you? Are you forgetting that we had Olajuwon, Drexler, and Barkley? And in the early 90's, there were plenty of teams with duos. Ron Harper was the definition of "role player", and 1994 Bulls didn't come close to the finals without Jordan. If you honestly believe that, then you must also believe the 2016 Heat almost made the finals without Lebron.
1994-1995 bulls had MJ you tell me why he struggled. They lost Horace Grant that year and just didn't have a good enough team so Jordan had to go recruit Rodman after baby Shaq took him out. You completely missed my post. I said at some point in their careers they were all better than Bosh. Not all at once. So my list is pretty valid. If you want to look at 2010 alone that's fine, Rose was the MVP in 2010.... Westbrook made the finals and was all nba 2nd team. Look at the all nba team and tell me who Bosh is better than... Bunch of the guards who didn't make the team are also better than him. Rodman is a 2 time defensive player of the year and maybe the greatest rebounder in nba history. You telling me that can't be top 10? All star voting is based on popularity and he's not a popular player with his antics. Easily top 10 player in 90s. Bron has played with 0 defensive player of the years. Crazy if you think Hakeem in his prime had any of those players. We got Drexler on his last legs and won 1 ring. The Barkley, Drexler, Hakeem Rockets is comparable to the KG, Deron, Pierce nets. But what about all the other teams? Besides Shaq and Penny who beat him what team in the East had more than one star? He played in a weak era after the league expanded.
Did the 1995 Bulls struggle with Jordan? He played 17 games. They went 13-4. But according to you, the 1995 Bulls had the best player in the East. Surely, with the best player in the East at the helm, they shouldn't have struggled so much, right? You're looking at 2011. IMO, that doesn't make sense since Bosh/Wade would have deflated numbers due to playing with Lebron. If you want to evaluate them as individual players, it makes more sense to look at 2010. And Bosh was better than Stoudemire. Rodman won those DPOY's in 1990 and 1991. So no, he wasn't top 10 in 1996-1998. He wasn't even an all-star in those years. All-star starters are based on popularity. All-star reserves are based on coaches. He's not close to a top 10 player in the 90's. Look at the PF's and C's. Olajuwon, Ewing, Robinson, Shaq, Mutombo, Malone, Barkley, and Shawn Kemp. Just looking at those 2 positions, there are 8 players undeniably ahead of Rodman. What's wild is, you think so highly of Bulls' Rodman without realizing that was only made possible by Jordan. Jordan kept Rodman in line. There's a reason the Spurs wanted to get rid of Rodman. There was a reason why, after leaving Chicago, Rodman only played 25 more games before retiring. Dwight Howard? Marc Gasol? Double standards much? Jordan wasn't in his prime when Rodman was with the Bulls. Expansion doesn't impact top teams. It just dilutes the bottom teams. Miami had Alonzo Mourning and Tim Hardaway. Atlanta had Steve Smith and Mutombo. In any case, you're missing the big picture. Jordan didn't conspire to team up with franchise players from other teams in his conference. Do you not understand how easy it is to reach the finals when you weaken your opponents while simultaneously strengthening your own team?
whether you're on the lbj is the best or mj is the best, i'm at least proud that nobody here thinks kobe is better than either one of those
Bosh put up inflated numbers on bad teams I don't really think that makes him better. There is a reason I never mentioned Kevin Love because he is the same way. I don't think he's better than peak Amare. Dude was still first team all defense with the bulls his first year. Who cares if he wasn't an all-star. He also led the league in rebounding that same year. This really boils down to how you rate someone like Draymond Green/Ben Wallace. I've always thought Draymond was the most important piece on the Warriors nothing works without him. So you can say a bunch of players are better but I don't necessarily agree that they are. That is Rodman in a nutshell. To build a team you need players to fit certain roles and no one played his role better than Rodman. So it's really hard to place a player like him and I said I could make a case he was top 10 just like you can try to make a case for Bosh. Also Rodman made the NBA top 75 player list ahead of a bunch of the guys you named and Bosh did not make it. But basically, all I am getting at is having Wade and Bosh is no different than having Pippen and Rodman. Just cuz Bron had to leave to get help doesn't mean Jordan didn't need help. You really going name 2 bench players at the end of their careers when they played with Bron and make it a comparison? So he played with prime Melo and Derrick Rose too right? Both MJ and and Lebron had some of the easiest path to finals you will ever see. Most teams were just completely outmatched. Why should it matter how it happened when it happened for both of them. In his second championship run Jordan's eastern conference opponents were as follows. Miami - best player were Rony Seikaly and they had a losing record. Knicks - With 1 star in Patrick Ewing Cleveland - Led by Mark Price. Jordan fans just always like to put Lebron down but let's look at it from a different perspective. What did you want Lebron to do? You wanted him to stay in Cleveland and do what? He took the most trash team of all time to the finals. Teams that win 60 games are gonna have a hard time building because they always have bad draft positions. But also he's in Cleveland and his management was piss poor. They literally let Carlos Boozer walk with no compensation on a handshake agreement. No one wants to go to Cleveland. I've never been to Cleveland and I've lived in America my whole life. How was he going to win? What he needed to do was pull a Kobe and just say he would only play for LA on draft night. He would probably have 10 rings. Soo much easier to build in a big market with unlimited resources. Ownership, teams, and management make a big difference. See (Steph Curry) The problem is he got drafted by his home town. He tried to stick out. He took them to a finals they had no business being in. His second best player was Mo Williams. He made that dude an all star... For his legacy sake he had to leave. He tried to recruit but no one would go to Cleveland. Then he went back and still won, but what happened? The greatest team of all time signed KD and the cards were stacked against him again. And my comment about Pippen being the second best player was meant only during the first 3 peat. Once Shaq came in he was not better than Shaq. And you going to act like Paul Pierce, KG, and Ray Allen didn't just team up right before him.
He led a Toronto squad full of role players to the playoffs. You're underestimating how difficult that is. 2010 Amare is not peak Amare. This is nonsense. If Draymond Green were drafted onto a different team, he arguably would never have made an all-star team. The problem with your argument is that you're ignoring accolades. In terms of resumes, all-star appearances are more valuable than all-defensive teams because all-stars will generally be far more impactful than great defenders. No, that's nonsense. I listed 8 guys alone from the PF/C positions who are higher than Rodman on the GOAT list. Zero chance he was a top-10 player for the 90's. You can make a case, sure, but you can't make a compelling case. Nonsense. Do you understand that the Heatles had PEAK Wade and Bosh? When Jordan, Pippen, and Rodman were together, all of them were clearly past their peaks. At some point during that 3peat, neither Pippen nor Rodman were in their primes. You implied that Jordan played with DPOY in Rodman when Rodman won it 5 years before joining Jordan. Double standards much? Because we're looking for reasons why one should be over the other on the GOAT list. No matter how you want to spin it, it's more honorable to develop teammates and defeat whoever you face as opposed to recruiting the best players in the conference so you can steamroll through the conference. I like how you ignored Miami's leading scorer Glen Rice. You're definitely arguing in good faith. And several high end role players. There's a reason that series went 7 games. No mention of all-star Brad Daugherty? Or all-star caliber Larry Nance? I'm fine with the endless superteams, but Lebron needed to win a LOT more rings if he wanted to challenge for GOAT. IMO, it wouldn't be a discussion until he led his teams to 7 titles. But that's still not accurate. He would still be clearly behind Barkley and Ewing.... All 3 of them were past their peaks. That's a big distinction.
I don't know why you keep harping on all star appearances. Its a popularity contest and holds no weight at all. I'd much rather have an all defensive player on my team. Literally Yao Ming got voted in over Shaq..... So why is Rodman on the NBA top 75 list and alot of the guys you listed are not? Talk about a double standard. Bron had peak wade for what 2 seasons before he fell off a cliff. Pippen was literally 30 how as he not in his prime? He played multiple years after he left the bulls. Kyrie missed multiple finals with injuries then left. Anthony Davis is literally never available. How is this a double standard? I literally told you Rodman led the league in rebounding and made 1st team all defense. Dwight and Gasol never did that with Lebron. Sounds like you have a double standard. Rodman started and played a lot. Dwight and Gasol barely played. So if you are going off rings Bill Russell has to be your goat. Why is it MJ? Because ERAs you play in matter. The 3 point shot has changed the game and leveled the playing field. Even if you are soo much better as a player you can still lose cuz teams can just get hot from 3. Jordan was lucky to play in an ERA where teams barely shot threes. Reggie Miller should have been attempting 10 a game at a minimum. And then your not factoring who he had to play in the finals. Like I said before KD joining the Warriors absolutely changed everything. Literally he was soo good, the second and third best players decided they had to play with each other just to beat him.... That's your opinion. I think he's better than both of them. Barkley plays no defense at all and then he moved out west. Pippen was a unicorn in that time. SF that could do it all. Basically the only player that could actually guard MJ was on his team. Because he played against 6'3" guards his whole career. When they teamed up they were not past their peaks. KG was 31 and literally in his prime.
As I said previously, all-star starters are a popularity contest. All-star reserves are not; they're voted on by coaches. No idea. Maybe because Rodman was on title teams and Mutombo/Kemp weren't? Maybe because Rodman had accolades in the late 80's that would be include in top75 consideration but not 90's consideration? No double standards on my part at all. I clearly said "at some point in the 3peat". Pippen failed to make the all-star team in 1998. His last all-star appearance was in 1997. No, you said DPOY: Russell can't hold a candle to Jordan's statistical dominance. Regarding finals opponents, the Heatles lost to the Mavericks. Jordan's Bulls never lost as favorites in the finals. Sure, it's my opinion, but my argument for Ewing > Pippen is FAR more compelling than your argument for Pippen > Ewing. Your hyperbole is part of why your arguments aren't compelling. You can look up the heights of the opposing shooting guards. Not many were 6'3. Do you understand the difference between "prime" and "peak"?
