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Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    I’ve gotta stop arguing with these libertarians, y’all are hypocrites by nature.
     
  2. Amiga

    Amiga Member

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    Link

    Instead, tonight I want to make a note of something that has been nagging at me for weeks now: Trump’s focus on 32-year-old Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich, who was arrested by Russian officers in March 2023 and is currently on trial for the trumped-up charge of espionage. The State Department considers him “wrongfully detained,” a rare designation indicating that the person is being held by a hostile government as a bargaining chip. That designation means the U.S. government will do all it can to secure his release.

    At least three times now, Trump has interfered with those negotiations by vowing that Russian president Vladimir Putin will release Gershkovich for him and him alone. He said it in last night’s CNN debacle, where he also made a big deal out of the idea that Putin will do it as a favor, without an exchange of money.

    He said something else last night in his slurry of words that jumped out. Somewhere in his discussion of Putin’s invasion of eastern Ukraine in February 2022, Trump said: “Putin saw that, he said, you know what, I think we’re going to go in and maybe take my—this was his dream. I talked to him about it, his dream.”

    Special Counsel Robert Mueller’s 2019 report on Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election explained that Paul Manafort, Trump’s campaign manager and then conduit to Russian operatives, in summer 2016 “discussed a plan to resolve the ongoing political problems in Ukraine by creating an autonomous republic in its more industrialized eastern region of Donbas, and having [Viktor] Yanukovych, the Ukrainian President ousted in 2014, elected to head that republic.”

    Manafort had helped to get the pro-Russian oligarch Yanukovych into office, and when Yanukovych fled to Russia after the Ukrainian people threw him out, Manafort was left unemployed and in debt to other oligarchs. When he went to work for Trump, for free, he promptly wrote to his partner Konstantin Kilimnik, whom the Republican-dominated Senate Intelligence Committee identified in 2020 as a Russian operative, asking how “we” could use the appointment “to get whole,” and made sure that the Russian oligarch to whom he owed the most money knew about his close connection with the Trump campaign (p. 135).

    The Mueller Report continued: “That plan, Manafort later acknowledged, constituted a ‘backdoor’ means for Russia to control eastern Ukraine” (p. 140). The region that Putin wanted was the country’s industrial heartland. He was offering a “peace” plan that carved off much of Ukraine and made it subservient to him. This was the dead opposite of U.S. policy for a free and united Ukraine, and there was no chance that former secretary of state Hillary Clinton, who was running for the presidency against Trump, would stand for it. But if only Trump were elected….

    And, in November 2016, he was.

    According to the Republican-dominated Senate Intelligence Committee, Manafort’s partner and Russian operative Kilimnick wrote that "[a]ll that is required to start the process is a very minor 'wink' (or slight push) from D[onald] T[rump] saying 'he wants peace in Ukraine and Donbass back in Ukraine' and a decision to be a 'special representative' and manage this process." Following that, Kilimnik suggested that Manafort ‘could start the process and within 10 days visit Russia ([Yanukovych] guarantees your reception at the very top level, cutting through all the bullsh*t and getting down to business), Ukraine, and key EU capitals.’ The email also suggested that once then–Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko understood this ‘message’ from the United States, the process ‘will go very fast and DT could have peace in Ukraine basically within a few months after inauguration’” (p. 99).

    According to the Senate Intelligence Committee, the men continued to work on what they called the “Mariupol Plan” at least until 2018.

    In last night’s debate, Trump insisted that Putin never would have invaded Ukraine on his watch (although Putin in fact continued his 2014 assault during Trump’s term, and Trump tried to withhold support for Ukraine).

    After Russia invaded Ukraine again in 2022, Jim Rutenberg published a terrific and thorough review of this history in the New York Times Magazine, pointing out that Putin’s attack on Ukraine looked different with this history behind it. Once Biden took office in 2021, the many efforts of the people around Trump, including most obviously Rudy Giuliani, to influence Ukrainian politics through their ties to the White House were over.

    “Thirteen months later,” Rutenberg wrote, “Russian tanks crossed the Ukrainian frontier.” Once his troops were there, Putin claimed he had annexed Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson, two of which were specifically named in the Mariupol Plan, and instituted martial law in them, claiming that the people there had voted to join Russia.

    Last night, Trump claimed that the Ukrainians are losing the war and described how sad it was that their country is being destroyed (without mentioning that it is Putin’s unprovoked war that is doing that damage). He also significantly exaggerated how much money the U.S. has contributed to Ukraine’s defense.

    That misrepresentation lines up with Putin’s offer of Friday, June 14, 2024, in a “peace proposal” to Ukraine: Ukraine would give up Donetsk, Luhansk, Zaporizhzhia, and Kherson, including far more territory than Putin’s troops occupy, in exchange for a ceasefire. Putin said, “If Kyiv and the Western capitals refuse it, as before, then in the end, that’s their…political and moral responsibility for the continuation of bloodshed.” He also demanded an end to all sanctions and that Ukraine abandon its plan to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO). (Ukraine president Volodymyr Zelensky rejected the plan and noted that there is no reason to think Putin will stop his land grab once his forces regroup.)

    So when Trump last night said about the 2022 invasion, “Putin saw that, he said, you know what, I think we’re going to go in and maybe take my—this was his dream. I talked to him about it, his dream,” it sounded as if he had been in on the Mariupol Plan. And when he talked about how the war needed to end, especially in light of Putin’s recent “peace” plan, it sounded as if perhaps he still is.

    And he promised, yet again, that he and he alone could get Gershkovich released.
     
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  3. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    Three major events happened in the last week.

    1 - Zelensky is now in full on panic and now willing to openly have peace talks.
    2 - Biden administration is dead in the water
    3 - Macron is out

    Ukraines two biggest supporters, both who are willing to escalate this into a full confrontation, are effectively removed from office. The people have spoken. We are tired of being told that if we dont kill more Russians, Putin will take over Europe. Diplomacy is not an option for both the Biden administration or Macron.

    The fact is the world was pretty stable at the end of 2020 and the last two years have become increasingly violent. Biden is a weak leader and EVERONE is taking advantage of it. The stupid die hard Biden supporters who are told how to think are the bag holders.

    While Putin will hold most of the cards, we will start to see conflicts both in Ukraine and the middle east start to simmer down. However, this won't hold for the long term. Its simply the West finally getting competent leadership back into power. The problems still remain and will likely come full fruition in the next 3-5 years.

    We have said the Trump years were a joke and an embarrassment. Biden and his narcistic administration have proved otherwise.
     
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  4. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    You can't be this ****ing stupid...can you?

    Trump is the narcissist who stole from children's charities, raped women, stole classified documents, is a convicted felon.....yet you make fun of an older man, a good man who has done a TON for this country....beat Covid, turned the economy around, and passed the largest infrastructure bill of all time....you are voting for a TEAM - and while Trump's entire cabinet was convicted of felonies....Biden hasn't had anyone remotely looked at.......KEEP ON ****ING THAT DUCK !

    The guy who literally is doing the job of looking out for those that elected him over corporations who want to **** us all......

    Unreal.

    DD
     
  5. hooroo

    hooroo Member

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    Trump surrendered to the Taliban.
     
  6. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    I am not making fun with Biden. I said his administration, including his wife, are narcissist and that is who is running for country. His administration, his wife, the party all are complicit of elder abuse. But you fail to see this or care. His entire team is full of Trump like people. And you keep defending it and wont stop.

    And nobody stopped Covid. It burned itself out just as it was predicted.

    Meanwhile, the world burns due to a complete incompetent Democrat party.
     
  7. hooroo

    hooroo Member

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    Nook likes this.
  8. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

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    Both countries have a 10 year pact that are hard for any new governments to unilaterally pull out.

    I haven't seen any sources about Z in panic mode, but NATO members definitely are scrambling.
     
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  9. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
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    Yep you are that stupid.

    Covid was killed by the vaccine.....

    Everyone in politics is a narcissit.

    TRUMP however is a dangerous one - who doesn't give a **** about anyone but himself...and he is a crook.....I would never vote for a crook.....

    And anyone that would is a ****ING TRAITOR to this country....

    DD
     
  10. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Yeah - all Putin has to do is wait until Donald Trump is back in office and he will be in prime position to take Ukraine or carve out of her what he wants.
     
  11. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Yeah - and he knew this all along.

    If he didn't win the war, there was a 50% chance that there would be a new administration that would be very lenient on him when it comes to invading other nations.

    Some of this falls on Western Europe as well - they knew damn well that US elections are very close, and that funding could easily disappear - but they did not do more to ensure that Ukraine survived, and Russia was pushed out sooner.

    We will have to live with this in the USA, as it will frame geo-political actions by Russia and China going forward, but ultimately NATO and the rest of Western Europe will have to deal with having a hostile neighbor next to them.
     
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  12. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Something about this picture is very disgusting at a base level.
     
  13. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    Exactly right. USA lost its #1 weapon in foreign policy -- deterrence (basically other countries being afraid of us) -- when Biden botched the Afghanistan withdrawal. Other countries (Russia, Iran, China) watched that happen and said to themselves that it's time to act while Biden is in office. No foreign leaders would step to DJT.
     
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  14. HTM

    HTM Member

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    People won't want to hear it but Democracy has large drawbacks in geopolitical terms.

    Putin/Russia can act unilaterally, decisively and quickly because it's one man calling the shots.

    The U.S./NATO has to navigate domestic politics/differing opinions/new administrations every 4-8 years with different foreign policies, foreign alliances and getting alliance members on the same page who all have their own domestic politics considerations etc etc.

    It's a huge liability when it comes to a confrontation like we are seeing between Russia/Ukraine/NATO right now.

    Now, obviously, Russia has a lot of liabilities themselves... corruption, poverty and incompetence etc etc but the strengths of decisive unilateral action are real.
     
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  15. Nook

    Nook Member

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    After seeing Biden appear to be older than the Pharaohs and Trump clearly crazier than the Mad Hatter, I don't think anyone that values stability or prosperity is feeling good. It is an indictment to the US party system.

    Pick your poison, a clearly falling apart Joe Biden or Donald Trump, that clearly no longer lives in the real world.
     
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  16. justtxyank

    justtxyank Member

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    Europe needs to prepare for the reality that they have a militarily hostile neighbor on one side and an apathetic backstop on the other side of the ocean.

    not that his military is capable of it, but there’s absolutely zero reason to think Trump would uphold nato obligations if Russia invaded France, let alone Poland
     
  17. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

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    Trump has pretty much said he wouldn’t honor NATO commitments if he didn’t think the countries were “pulling their weight”. As it’s unlikely that Putin invades Poland but the Baltic states are likely in big trouble.

    Also if the French Right win they too have threatened to pull out of NATO and with friendly governments to Putin in Slovenia and Hungary already NATO could be fractured in 2025.
     
  18. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

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    Lol. If Russia is invading France, there is no NATO.
    You people. Please take a moment to explain to me how Russia invades France with a functioning NATO.

    It's like some people don't even try to think. I can see Xi sitting back high-fiving Putin as Putin lays waste to one of China's top markets.

    Xi: Hey bro, go for it. Destroy Europe. You the man. It's ok if you destroy hundreds of billions in exports. No problem at all. While you're destroying my economy, let me up my weapons production 10x so you can destroy my other markets.

    Stupid.
     
  19. Nook

    Nook Member

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    Yeah. I don’t know what the long term relations damage will be but Western Europe needs to prepare because Obama or Reagan isn’t showing up to save the day.
     
  20. Nook

    Nook Member

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    If Russia is invading France, we have serious problems. Having said that, Russia is in a better position to invade Poland or Finland with Trump as President - and the alliance between Russia and China is not set in stone.
    Having said that - once Ukraine falls if Europe doesn’t step up, it’s hard to know what happens.
     

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