Those old centers would of scored more if they were playing the roles of the modern centers you listed. None of those modern centers played with 20 point scorers, all of the old ones would of scored more had they shot as much. Reed was the only guy who didn't have a high scoring teammate, Wilt, Thurmund and Russell, played with two other 20 point scorers, and Cunningham played with one. Shaq, Hakeem, and Ewing were the main focuses of their offenses, only Ewing had a guy scoring over 16 on his team. Rebounding, only Hakeem and Ewing had a player who averaged double digits with him, only Russell didn't have a player that averaged double digits with him. Would the numbers you altered really look like that if they weren't the only great scorers and rebounders on their teams? I doubt it. We haven't even mentioned yet ANOTHER Hall of Fame center in Wes Unseld who went for 14 and 18 in 69, 4 players on his team averaged more points than him, and another was a double digit rebounder.
Maybe so, but at least the crack I'm smoking doesn't make me as crazy as the crack you're smoking! Exhibit A: We'll never prove that, however when Shaq was in college and around the same size as Wilt he wasn't competing in the high jump and running olympic caliber sprints. Exhibit B: Russell won more MVPs than Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and Shaq COMBINED, he won more championships than Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing and Shaq COMBINED. Who cares if he didn't have a great offensive game, his defense was much better than all of theirs, the best of all time. Now talk bad about his offense if you want but without him the Celtics do not have a great fast breaking team, because he was the one who started all of their fast breaks, so in a way he was a great offensive player. He didn't rely on physical brutality back then, why would he do it now? Hack a Shaq, so? That doesn't stop Shaq's teams from winning. He was doubled and tripled about as much as Shaq, if he didn't face them he wouldn't of LED the league in assists, TWICE! Exhibit C: And Wilt didn't fair extremely well? 30 and 22 career averages say that he did fair extremely well. Yes and no. Yes the defenses back then weren't as good, however the offenses back then were A LOT better, back then mostly everyone in the NBA could shoot, I mean really shoot, regardless of the defense, and almost everyone could pass. You should be able to see that clearly from ESPN Classic games as well, don't even look back to the 60s and 70s, look back at the 80s and early 90s and you'll see the same thing. That's what it sounded like to me when I heard him say it, I'm not about to think he was foolish for thinking that he only won 11 championships, and beat Wilt plenty of times on the way. And again, baseball and basketball are different, if you play a game right you can "let" a player on the other team do what he wants because you know he won't beat you at the end.
60s players could shoot? Check their FG%. And it was not because of the "great" defense. Competition: 90s - 00s 80s: weak defense until the end of the era - - 70s - - 60s Popularity 90s - 00s 80s - - - 70s - - - - 60s
Regardless of defense? What defense. They could shoot, but they didn't have hands in their face or bumps from the body. Everytime I watch old NBA footage from the 60's and early 70's (When Wilt really made his hay), I'm just astounded by the low amount of intensity the players are bringing to the game. Bring Wilt into the late 70's and into the 80's and he'll get closer to Kareem numbers. He'd still be great, and still be dominant, but this 40 and 20 business wouldn't be happening.
They did't score more because they didn't deserve it. They were not the best players on their own team...in a weak talent era.
Why does popularity matter in this discussion? Now, no team back in the 60s scored under 100 points, now a days only the Mavs and Kings go over 100 points, so which era had the great offenses? Look at their FG%, they weren't that bad and going into the late 60s, early 70s they pretty much compare to the FG% of today, yet everyone was still going over 100 per game. Take away the three point line and it's possible that no one goes over 100 since teams like the Mavericks and Kings rely on it so much.
How many of the NBA's star players could consistently hit a WIDE OPEN mid range jump shot? Take away the hands in their faces or bumps from the body, it won't matter. For example, no one on the Olympic team could do it, I didn't see hands in their faces or bumps from the body. Why couldn't they hit shots if those foreign Olympic teams brought about as much intensity to defense as the players back then did? It's cause most players in the NBA right now can't shoot, at least not as good as players back then could.
Right, so in 94 Shaq played with guys as good as Jerry West and Elgin Baylor, Hakeem played with guys as good as John Havlicek and Sam Jones, John Starks was as good as Earl Monroe, Robinson played with guys as good as Walt Frazier and Dave Debusschere. That really was a weak talent era, I guess it was just strong in HALL OF FAMERS.
as for your "other 20 ppg scorers as teammates" thing. they had all those high scorers because the game was incredibly more high scoring back then. scoring does seem to have been more spread around before the 90's, however the increased pace of the game and extra point easily make up for the more even distribution of points.
maybe I should have been more clear but I was saying that if Hakeem was put into Wilt's place do you think he would have averaged 50 and 25... anyways I think he would of and maybe even more ------------------------------------------------------------------ Its ridiculous if you think Wilt would average more than 13 or 14 rebounds a game today
The Wilt on the Lakers was 32 years old, Shaq's age next season, I haven't seen a really mobile Shaq since his Orlando days. But then again, the physical training, medicine, conditioning, weight lifting back then wasn't nearly as good as it is today, even Kareem was able to play longer in the 80s with some improvements. Wow, me too! I'd take Russell and Wilt over all three of them though. NO. Wilt Chamberlain. A lot of those guys aren't Hall of Famers if they didn't win so many championships, a lot of guys back then had better individual careers than plenty of those Celtic HOFers, the only difference was that they didn't win as much so they aren't in the Hall today. Again, the Celtics won so much because of Bill Russell, the Celtics dynasty started and ended with Bill Russell, not any of those other Hall of Famers. Well... I'm stumped on the 94 Rockets because Hakeem had to score so much, but the I think he would of willed them to victory, and then the 95 team would of won. On the Lakers, I think those guys would of won more than three with Russell instead of Shaq, Phil would of taken care of the offense with Kobe and company, Russell would of made that defense the best in the league. Russell had too much pride to let his teams lose, he wouldn't allow himself to get involved with a fued with a teammate because he never cared for the public's opinion on who was better or anything like that, he only cared about winning. Those coaches would of been perfect for Russell as well because they did think that stars deserved star treatment, so when Russell refused to practice (which was always since he would rather read a newspaper than practice) they wouldn't have a problem with it. To me it's by as big of a margin as Wilt's offense is to everyone else, doesn't take away anything from Hakeem, but like I said his defense was a key to the Celtics great offense you can't say that about Hakeem's defense. Russell's offense wasn't that bad, if he had to he could of averaged 20-25 points per game, but he knew that's not what it took to win so he choose not to. Look at his college stats, with that team he needed to score a lot, so he did that and he won 2 National Championships with a school that didn't qualify for the tournament before him and hasn't since. Who knows if Wilt would of been physicaly brutal on offense, but right now Shaq doesn't have to be as physical as he can be, I think it would be the same with Wilt. And about the offenses... I don't know why people hate on them because the defense wasn't this near football style defense they play in the NBA today. They can only play against the players, defenses, coaches, etc. that were there, and they scored in triple digits all the time.
PG - Magic The greatest point guard of all time. A winner, clutch performer, and most of all a LEADER. A very unselfish player and one of the game's smartest players. All around who understands the game and knows the strengths and weaknesses of his teammates and opponents. SG - MJ The greatest of all time. He is the ALI, PELE of basketball. The game's best clutch performer. A winner, a great all around player. Early in his career he was a dominant yet selfish offensive player. But when he was surrounded by good teammates, he blossomed offensively and defensively. One of the game's most cunning and confident players. Regarded as the most perfect specimen for a basketball player. SF - Bird The game's best small forward. Cunning, smart and very confident on the court. He can guarantee a victory even before the game started. One of the game's best pure shooters and all around players. A leader who sets example on the court with his tenacity and never say die attitude. Hates to lose and just like magic and mj, a clutch player. PF - TD His two championships and an mvp made me changed my mind. I used to have karl malone on my list but after reading the comments of my fellow clutchcity chatters, it makes sense to put TD on my pf list. He is mr. fundamentals. Probably the most fundamental big man in the game since bill walton and abdul jabbar. He is mr. economical. Doesnt do too much, very smart, great footwork and the best bank shot in the game. He is mr. consistency, but stil has long ways to go to climb up the ladder of legendary status occupied by magic, jordan and bird C - Kareem Abdul Jabbar I wonder why there is no vote for kareem. Wow. Owner of the greatest shot of all time. The sky hook. Unblockable. Noboby can stop that shot. Nobody. Even in his waning years he was still double teamed. One of the games most fundamental big men. He has half the offensive skills of wilt and half of the defensive skills of bill which makes him better than these two giants of the game. The games most prolific scorer and owns one of the most durable playing careers. A shade below them are PG - Big O SG - West SF - Havlicek PF - Karl Malone C - Wilt
