More Movement WITHOUT the Ball??

I absolutely cannot stand your constant JVG whinning. Goodbye.

 

I didn't say we'd run more this year. We don't have the personnel to be a running team.

BTW, easy points doesn't mean more points, it means more FG%.

Easy points could be off cutting/slashing, hitting a higher perceteage of your open shots, getting more putbacks.

Our defense won't improve from last year, it may even go down, but we will be MUCH improved offensively. Very similar to the Spurs team.

 

Exactly.

 

Hmmm, so you frame it for us? ---> Easy points, up-tempo game, running basketball == more scoring.

Ok, let me reframe it for you ----> higher FG%, less turnovers, better screens, properly run pick and rolls, more fast-breaks finished properly, improved Yao, scoring ability from Tmac, and improved D from TMac = Easier points + a bit more scoring.

No one here is talking about a 100ppg! We're just talking about the whole picture! Hell, even 94ppg would be fine (w/efficiency) as long as the above factors improve. And they will.

 

Is 94ppg and an increased FG% reasonable? True, the talent is better than any of his other clubs, but last season is remarkably consistent with Van Gundy's Knicks squads in terms of FG% and PPG.

FG% PPG
.463 95.4 (Knicks 1996-97)
.447 91.6 (Knicks 1997-98)
.435 86.4 (Knicks 1998-99)
.455 92.1 (Knicks 1999-00)
.444 88.7 (Knicks 2000-01)

.442 89.8 (Rockets 2003-04)

 

Last season we sucked in PPG (and TO). I'd say that the Rox were *under* JVG's consistency.

Why?

We had idiot Francis running our team! Thus, if our "best" players of today (TMac/Yao) need to out perform the past NY "best" players. This is all you can ask for. And I said 94ppg because that's a conservative increase in *just* point production. And please don't underestimate our talent level (TWO top FIVE players in the NBA!), less TO, better passing, more competent players that can actually *learn* etc...this will have a big effect.

I'm mean, I'm not sure what the heck you are trying to prove? That Gundy was supposed to win a title with Spree, Houston, Childes, and an old Ewing? Did you forget that there are other teams in the league that were better? That his team changed over the years. So did his competition in the east.

Never once did I think that his team would ever do anything. Not because of his coaching...but rather his *team*. This was because they had no real leadership on the court. Allan Houston? Yeah, right. Passive. Spree? Erratic. Chiles or Ward. Nah...Ewing? Too old! I mean, his NY *team* was supposed to compete against Jordan, Duncan and Shaq? Yeah, right. I mean, come on. Did the guy kick your dog or something? He hasn't even been here three years yet.

What if we average 95ppg with a team FG% of 45? What then? Will you want more? Dude, if we're winning because of more efficient passing, FG%, fundamentals, team play, and defense. What difference does it make that we don't "run and gun" or "score 100+?"

I just want a balanced team. We don't need to play like Dallas w/crappy D. Or like the old Rox, with crappy offense! I mean, just the fact that our clueless "point guard" is gone should be enough to shore up more point production alone.

By the way, check out Minnesota's PPG/FG% last year....I'd say they have a nice balanced of PPG/FG%/OP-FG% and Defense.

94.55/0.462/.414 OP (Not the best PPG team, but the best in FG% and really did a number on their opponents FG%) I'd say that's a nice balanced attack. The higher the FG% tells me that this team's players are doing something right. So, we'll see...how JVG uses TMac/Yao/JJ.

I'd say that anything close to 45FG% is just fine. I'd be happy with a 92-94 point production. We'll certainly have the D to back our offense up. And keep those TO down!

 

He's not Rudy. For some reason people take it personal that he was the one to replace Rudy, and bash him no matter how well he succeeds.

 

The numbers don't show that.

Sorry, that isn't valid. Steve Francis is a quality NBA player. Tracy McGrady is a better one, but not that much better. Throw in Cuttino Mobley and it is a race.

To THIS THREAD, the numbers show that offenses under Jeff Van Gundy performed within a fairly narrow range, and that last year's Rockets were well within that range. I think expecting any significant increase in FG% and any more than a nominal (1-2 ppg) increase in scoring is unlikely.

Proving the point. If other variables change, and one doesn't, consistent outcomes might be more heavily weighted to the constant.

Then I will admit I was wrong.

 

if we do that this year, while keeping our defense almost as good as last year ( 89ppg, 41% FG's) we will be heading straight to the top.

 

Conversely, at .435/86.4PPG, the Rockets will be lucky to be .500

 

The numbers don't show that? Ok, you better stop now. What are you trying to say? That .44FG is close to .45FG? It's almost like you are saying that that's a bad thing. I'd say that's a good thing that his range for FG is around 44-46.

Hmmm? What about 89ppg to 96ppg? Looks like a much broader range than the FG%. What's next? I mean, your point has been lost.

What? Is it that JVG didn't design an offense and that's the reason that we didn't win the championship last year? That the Knicks didn't win a championship? Or are you saying that because of his offense we'll never win a championship? Or better yet, are you saying because Rudy is gone and JVG took his place, you're mad, thus you'll take it out on any coach that takes over for Rudy? Getting closer?

Listen. About the numbers. .45 FG% is fine. I personally think that it might go up a bit. But I ALSO think that our PPG will go up too. You call it nominal 1 or 2. SO WHAT!? 91 is better than 89! But that factor itself is not what makes a winner. It's just ONE FACTOR. But noooooo. You don't care about that "winning" stuff. You just make blank statements like "JVG offense" will make us losers.

Ok, whatever...

You have a knack of taking ONE aspect of the game (JVG offense) and blowing it out of proportion. Thus locking us into YOUR future.

Now that's great signature material! "McGrady is not much better than Francis" Ok, well aside from showing you his 29-32ppg capability, and 5.5 apg, AND 2.8 TOPG! I'd say that's a bit more than "not much better than Francis." The way you talk, I'm not sure if you understand how much a turnover prone PG has on a *team.*

And spare me the Mobley issue. Even the three "Francis, Mobley, Cato" will be the same in Orlando as they were in Houston. Changing uniforms won change anything. They will still be mediocre. Yet, they had an opportunity to play with Yao. They faltered in that too!

Well, move over. And watch McGrady and Yao. We'll see if he squanders this opportunity. Then you'll see w/your own eyes what "better" means.

What range? 89ppg - 95.4ppg? Nice range! Kinda wide don't ya think? I wonder if that has *anything* to do with the players he had....? Nah....? Probably the JVG magical wand. Ya think? What about 44FG-46FG? Well, a 45% average is fine w/me. What? Do you expect 50% for the whole TEAM? Get real...

And about the "1-2 nominal increase." Yeah? And? So what? That's what I'm saying. I'm not predicting a 100PPG team. Anything from 92-94 would be a nice lift. But this will be directly tied to our new players and how they play as team within JVG offense. That's my point. You're in denial that we'll play better because you don't want them too! Admit it!

Only if you consider each VARIABLE of EQUAL VALUE. I hope you aren't saying that the "JVG offense (or any coaches offense for that matter)" is worth more than JORDAN, DUNCAN, or SHAQ (as a variable) for an outcome?

There are too many variable to just use two. Leadership was another one that missing from NY teams. And you might want to add another variable to last years Rockets: turnover prone PG.

Even if we only scored 91ppg, with 44FG%. But ALSO win more because of better players, passing, efficiency, and less TO. That might not meet your 95/45. But I'd predict that you'd become a more "JVG sour puss" than you are now. Even if we won more.

 

Lets see. Francis 150 TO are gone. And McGrady's offense is here. Yao is improving each year. Yet there's not going to be much difference? Ok...that's nice.

I'm gonna love it if we make it to the 2nd round, on a 52 win season, and "only" get to the 5th game vs say, the Spurs. It's going to be funny watching you yap away, "We made it to the 2nd round, but we didn't win 6-7 games! He must go!"

Have fun getting flamed!

Or....

It's going to be funny too if they better 51 wins and make it 6 or 7 games into the 2nd round. Let say they actualy get 55 wins and make it to the 7th game. Then, you'll claim "Ok, he stays. But only because edc has approved it." Like I said, nice way to cover your self.

See, your point is "nothing will change" because you hate JVG and Rudy is gone.

My point is that: Players matter, teams matter, chemistry matters, and coaching matters. All these factors have improved. And becaues of this, we will better our ppg, FG%, and winning percentage. This will have an impact on the "style" we play as well. And the "fun factor." So sit back and enjoy the show.

 

Then, why did you only use one variable in your determination of JVG's past?

It's like saying a couple years ago, "Coach Larry Brown sucks! He's never won a title! His coaching sucks!" Then, last year he does it. Kinda makes that person look kinda silly now doesn't it?

There are many factors related to winning basketball.

I know that's it's hard for you to admit it. But Francis was the cause of a lot of that "ugly ball" you have grown accustom too. The only reason you might have liked Rudy-ISO-Francis ball is because Francis liked that type of offense. Rudy rarely called any plays. Francis hates running plays. He likes free-style. So, of course you have a preference to this type of offense. It might be "fun" but it's not winning offense.

Move Francis to a more structured offense like Brown, Jackson, or even Nelson. Then watch Francis's "ugly ball" come flowing out. JVG is more stuctured. Thus, it's harder for Francis to "understand" it even more so.

 

You also pick up McGrady's 2.67 turnovers per game, and his tendency toward selfishness. For whatever reason you don't like Francis' game. I happen to believe he was an All-Star, that he and Yao played pretty well together, and that the both of them were crippled by Van Gundy's offensive schemes (or lack thereof).

With regards to who is coaching this club, it doesn't matter whether "I approve it" or you, or anyone else other than Mr. Alexander. If it were up to me, I'd do whatever possible to get a championship-quality coach like Phil Jackson to this team RIGHT NOW.

I'm saying "nothing will change" (offensively) next season because in all his years in the league, Jeff Van Gundy's ability to deflate the basketball has been proven. It is as much a part of his coaching style as his strict adherence to Riley-esque defense.

If you want to talk wins and losses, all of your points are a question mark.

Players matter: Half the team has been replaced by one of the worst teams in the east last season.

Chemistry matters: No one has any idea whether these guys will have any chemistry or not. It could possibly we worse than that of Yao/SF/CM.

Coaching matters: There is no reason to believe Jeff VanGundy will be any better than he was here last year, or was for all those years in New York. To my mind, that's an average to slightly above-average NBA head coach.

This *could* be a good team. It could also flop miserably. I don't have a crystal ball. The prediction I am willing to make is that Tracy McGrady's offense will be crippled, that he won't lead the league in scoring. I also see 66-58 games, which are just plain old difficult to watch.

 

I hope you know that 2.67 TO is EXCELLENT for SHOOTING GUARD that has 5.5 APG(TM). A rate of 3.7 TO for PG SUCKs! Expecially if that PG only gets 5.5 APG (SF)! Kidd gets away w/3.5+ TO because at least he can achieve 9+ APG! All you have to do is look at the best PG's TO rating in the league (not Francis; he leads the league in TO!). The best PG's usually have under 2.9 TOPG.

Also, you are wrong about "crippled in JVG offense." It's called idiot PG: Francis. I mean, you can deny this all you want. SF will be mediocre no matter what team he goes to because of his mental ability to learn (or lack thereof).

And McGrady's offense will not be "crippled." He will willingly give up his shots to Yao because he has stated this time and time again! Also, being "selfish" is allowed more so for a SG, than it is for PG! So, that's another knock on Francis. He wanted to be a SG, yet his faltered in his PG duties. So, we're talking apples and oranges.

What applies to Francis will not apply to McGrady. In fact, we'll want McGrady to take more shots than SF because he will be our offensive weapon and is more capable scorer. His main duties will not be PG, like it was for Francis.

Kinda sad that McGrady, a SG, is a better "PG" than Francis was, even though SF role was PG.

Nice catch. Covering your comments again? Talk about broad statements!

Let see....I could win the lotto tomorrow. But I could also NOT win the lotto tomorrow!

DUH!

Worse than SF/CM/Yao? Ok, that's a good one! SF may have liked Yao off the court. But it's what you do on the court that matters. Ones ablity to play together; efficiently!

SF and efficiency are not synonymous. And efficiency and teamwork are tied to chemistry. Five more years SF would still be trying to "get it."

 

This is really the only point that matters. If this team develops anything even approaching good chemistry, the rest of the league needs to watch out. With Yao, TMac, JHow, and the rest, we could have a very dangerous team that could easily challenge SA for the division title this year.

SF, Cat, and the rest simply did not have good chemistry with Yao at the 5. I commend CD and LA for doing everything possible to try to get some guys that will complement Yao. I think they did an EXCELLENT job and am very optimistic about this season.

Chemistry is really one of the biggest factors, just look at the 94 Rox championship run.

 

This is getting away from the topic, so no more responses after this one.

...and Jeff Van Gundy couldn't coach an offense out of a paper bag. Sheesh, and you call me single minded.

...and how do you know this? Talk and action are two different things. McGrady has yet to regularly willingly give up the basketball. I don't know if he will do that for Yao. There can be no doubt that he will "want his," and when the team is only scoring 80 points in many games, there are only so many buckets to go around.

FWIW, I have no real complaints about McGrady, and I think the deal was pretty fair for both sides. T-Mac is the best player in the deal, and the axiom is that the team that gets the best player "wins," so be it. What I think is a poor fit is a head coach who obtains the scoring leader in the league and can only say "Who cares about his offense, what a great defensive player I can turn him into!"

The odds are that you won't win the lottery tommorow, just like the odds are that the Rockets will not average 95 PPG.

 

Exactly what kind of offense did you expect from the Rockets last season? I mean, the only two players that produced were Yao and Francis, the only other one who made a real contribution to the offense was Jim Jackson. The talent on last year's team SUCKED outside of Yao and Francis, we're talking about players that wouldn't start on any Western Conference team but the Rockets, how were you going to get a great offense from that? And effenciency does NOT come from chemistry, it comes from TALENT, the Rockets had the least amount of talent in the Western Conference so you were going to get a crap offense. You see plenty of new players go to teams like the Mavericks and Kings every season and they never miss a beat on offense despite not playing much together and developing chemistry because they have great TALENT.

Tracy's duties will more than likely be exactly like Francis' were, MAKE PLAYS, the only basic difference is that Tracy will make a lot more with scoring. You probably won't understand this, but most of Tracy's assists come from trying to score FIRST, mostly of reactionary passes that's why he won't average that many TOs when SGs like Iverson, Bryant, Lebron, Carter, and Pierce will because they're trying to make plays for others.

As for next season's offense, well I think it'll be better but we'll stilll have to have one of the NBA's best defenses to improve much.