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60 minutes 2: used forged documents to smear W?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Sep 10, 2004.

  1. basso

    basso Member
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    what were these guys thinking?

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A9967-2004Sep9.html

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    washingtonpost.com
    Some Question Authenticity of Papers on Bush

    By Michael Dobbs and Mike Allen
    Washington Post Staff Writers
    Friday, September 10, 2004

    Documents unearthed by CBS News that raise doubts about whether President Bush fulfilled his obligations to the Texas Air National Guard include several features suggesting that they were generated by a computer or word processor rather than a Vietnam War-era typewriter, experts said yesterday.

    Experts consulted by a range of news organizations pointed out typographical and formatting questions about four documents as they considered the possibility that they were forged. The widow of the National Guard officer whose signature is on the bottom of the documents also disputed their authenticity.

    The documents, which were shown Wednesday night on "60 Minutes II," bear dates from 1972 and 1973 and include an order for Bush to report for his annual physical exam and a discussion of how he could get out of "coming to drill."

    The dispute over the documents' authenticity came as Democrats stepped up their criticism of Bush's service with the National Guard between 1968 and 1973. The Democratic National Committee sought to fuel the controversy yesterday by holding a news conference at which Sen. Tom Harkin (Iowa) pointed to the documents as a fresh indictment of Bush's credibility.

    CBS News released a statement yesterday standing by its reporting, saying that each of the documents "was thoroughly vetted by independent experts and we are convinced of their authenticity." The statement added that CBS reporters had verified the documents by talking to unidentified people who saw them "at the time they were written."

    CBS spokeswoman Kelli Edwards declined to respond to questions raised by experts who examined copies of the papers at the request of The Washington Post, or to provide the names of the experts CBS consulted. Experts interviewed by The Post pointed to a series of telltale signs suggesting that the documents were generated by a computer or word processor rather than the typewriters in widespread use by Bush's National Guard unit.

    A senior CBS official, who asked not to be named because CBS managers did not want to go beyond their official statement, named one of the network's sources as retired Maj. Gen. Bobby W. Hodges, the immediate superior of the documents' alleged author, Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian. He said a CBS reporter read the documents to Hodges over the phone and Hodges replied that "these are the things that Killian had expressed to me at the time."

    "These documents represent what Killian not only was putting in memoranda, but was telling other people," the CBS News official said. "Journalistically, we've gone several extra miles."

    The official said the network regarded Hodges's comments as "the trump card" on the question of authenticity, as he is a Republican who acknowledged that he did not want to hurt Bush. Hodges, who declined to grant an on-camera interview to CBS, did not respond to messages left on his home answering machine in Texas.

    In a telephone interview from her Texas home, Killian's widow, Marjorie Connell, described the records as "a farce," saying she was with her husband until the day he died in 1984 and he did not "keep files." She said her husband considered Bush "an excellent pilot."

    "I don't think there were any documents. He was not a paper person," she said, adding that she was "livid" at CBS. A CBS reporter contacted her briefly before Wednesday night's broadcasts, she said, but did not ask her to authenticate the records.

    If demonstrated to be authentic, the documents would contradict several long-standing claims by the White House about an episode in Bush's National Guard service in 1972, when he abruptly gave up flying and moved from Texas to Alabama to take part in a political campaign. The CBS documents purport to show that Killian, who was Bush's squadron commander, was unhappy with Bush for his performance toward meeting his National Guard commitments and resisted pressure from his superiors to "sugarcoat" the record.

    After their initial airing on the "CBS Evening News" and "60 Minutes II" programs Wednesday night, the documents were picked up by other news organizations, including The Post. A front-page story in The Post yesterday noted that CBS declined to provide details about the source of the documents, the authenticity of which could not be independently confirmed.

    On Wednesday evening, the White House e-mailed reporters copies of the documents, as supplied by CBS, as well as the transcript of a CBS interview with White House communications director Dan Bartlett rebutting allegations that Bush had shirked his military duties. While Bartlett described the emergence of the documents as "dirty politics," he did not dispute their authenticity.

    After doubts about the documents began circulating on the Internet yesterday morning, The Post contacted several independent experts who said they appeared to have been generated by a word processor. An examination of the documents by The Post shows that they are formatted differently from other Texas Air National Guard documents whose authenticity is not questioned.

    William Flynn, a forensic document specialist with 35 years of experience in police crime labs and private practice, said the CBS documents raise suspicions because of their use of proportional spacing techniques. Documents generated by the kind of typewriters that were widely used in 1972 space letters evenly across the page, so that an "i" uses as much space as an "m." In the CBS documents, by contrast, each letter uses a different amount of space.

    While IBM had introduced an electric typewriter that used proportional spacing by the early 1970s, it was not widely used in government. In addition, Flynn said, the CBS documents appear to use proportional spacing both across and down the page, a relatively recent innovation. Other anomalies in the documents include the use of the superscripted letters "th" in phrases such as 111th Fighter Interceptor Squadron, Bush's unit.

    "It would be nearly impossible for all this technology to have existed at that time," said Flynn, who runs a document-authentication company in Phoenix.

    Other experts largely concurred. Phil Bouffard, a forensic document examiner from Cleveland, said the font used in the CBS documents appeared to be Times Roman, which is widely used by word-processing programs but was not common on typewriters.

    CBS officials insisted that the network had done due diligence in checking out the authenticity of the documents with independent experts over six weeks. The senior CBS official said the network had talked to four typewriting and handwriting experts "who put our concerns to rest" and confirmed the authenticity of Killian's signature.

    The doubts about the documents left the White House and the Bush campaign in a state of suspended animation, with Bush aides encouraging doubts about the documents but conceding that the possibility that they were forged seemed too good to be true. White House spokeswoman Claire Buchan said that officials there had not attempted to authenticate the documents but simply released copies "provided to us by CBS in the interests of openness."

    The Bush administration's strategy yesterday was to let news organizations raise doubts and conduct forensic examinations, without taking an official position on whether the documents were genuine.

    "It's clear in reviewing the documents that they do nothing to change the fact that the president served honorably, and was proud of his service in the Air National Guard," Bush campaign spokesman Steve Schmidt said.
     
  2. FranchiseBlade

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    What a shame if the documents are forged.

    First the swifboat liars claim that after action reports were written by Kerry when it turns out later that they weren't. Several of their 'witnesses' weren't in a position to know things they claim they saw.

    Now it looks the anti-Bush side may have been relying on documents that aren't legit.

    This is just disgusting.
     
  3. basso

    basso Member
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    more from abc:

    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/Vote2004/bush_documents_040909-1.html

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    False Documentation?
    Questions Arise About Authenticity of Newly Found Memos on Bush's Guard Service
    ABCNEWS.com

    Sept. 9, 2004— Questions are being raised about the authenticity of newly discovered documents relating to George W. Bush's service in the National Guard during the Vietnam War.
    Marjorie Connell — widow of the late Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, the reported author of memos suggesting that Bush did not meet the standards for the Texas Air National Guard — questioned whether the documents were real.

    "The wording in these documents is very suspect to me," she told ABC News Radio in an exclusive phone interview from her Texas home. She added that she "just can't believe these are his words."

    First reported by CBS's 60 Minutes, the memos allegedly were found in Killian's personal files. But his family members say they doubt he ever made such documents, let alone kept them.

    Connell said Killian did not type, and though he did take notes, they were usually on scraps of paper. "He was a person who did not take copious notes," she said. "He carried everything in his mind."

    Killian's son, Gary Killian, who served in the Guard with his father, also told ABC News Radio that he doubts his father wrote the documents. "It was not the nature of my father to keep private files like this, nor would it have been in his own interest to do so," he said.

    "We don't know where the documents come from," he said, adding, "They didn't come from any family member."

    Connell said her late husband would be "turning over in his grave to know that a document such as this would be used against a fellow guardsman," and she is "sick" and "angry" that his name is "being battled back and forth on television."

    Her late husband was a fan of the young Bush, said Connell, who remarried after her husband died in 1984. "I know for a fact that this young man … was an excellent aviator, an excellent person to be in the Guard, and he was very happy to have him become a member of the 111th."

    Experts Question Veracity

    Questions are also being raised about the memos by document experts, who say they appear to have been written on a computer, not a typewriter. The memos are dated 1972 and 1973, when computers with word-processing software were not available.

    More than half a dozen document experts contacted by ABC News said they had doubts about the memos' authenticity.

    "These documents do not appear to have been the result of technology that was available in 1972 and 1973," said Bill Flynn, one of country's top authorities on document authentication. "The cumulative evidence that's available … indicates that these documents were produced on a computer, not a typewriter:"

    Among the points Flynn and other experts noted:

    The memos were written using a proportional typeface, where letters take up variable space according to their size, rather than fixed-pitch typeface used on typewriters, where each letter is allotted the same space. Proportional typefaces are available only on computers or on very high-end typewriters that were unlikely to be used by the National Guard.
    The memos include superscript, i.e. the "th" in "187th" appears above the line in a smaller font. Superscript was not available on typewriters.
    The memos included "curly" apostrophes rather than straight apostrophes found on typewriters.
    The font used in the memos is Times Roman, which was in use for printing but not in typewriters. The Haas Atlas — the bible of fonts — does not list Times Roman as an available font for typewriters.
    The vertical spacing used in the memos, measured at 13 points, was not available in typewriters, and only became possible with the advent of computers.

    The White House is declining to comment on the veracity of the documents. Many Democrats are worried that if they are found to be forgeries, it will be a setback for Sen. John Kerry's campaign to defeat Bush in November.
     
  4. Phi83

    Phi83 Member

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    The lies and trickery from the left never stops. This is just one example the lust the left has for power over the people. CBS and leftist in general are just sad and disturbed individuals, hated will drive people crazy!
     
  5. FranchiseBlade

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    Thank you for not posting fake pictures of Kerry and Anton Levay in this thread.
     
  6. Phi83

    Phi83 Member

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  7. gifford1967

    gifford1967 Member
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    If the memos are forged I hope the people who did it are exposed and prosecuted.
     
  8. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    this is absolutely disgusting.

    seriously...after the NY Times..and now this....how in the world does the u.s. media have even a shred of credibility, now? yeah..we'll just make stuff up. great.
     
  9. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    To be fair, I seriously doubt that 60 Minutes fabricated the documents.

    However, if this is true then they definitely dropped the ball on vetting their sources.
     
  10. Chance

    Chance Member

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    If you're not cheating, you're not trying.
     
  11. ROXTXIA

    ROXTXIA Member

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    Look, a lot of what gets into U.S. papers----and what does not----is amazing. Lots of people on both sides of the political fence use the AP, Reuters, etc, to get their stories out. And then it blows up.

    Were the documents forged? Or was the information that they were forged just invented to put seeds of doubt in our minds?

    Remember how many people Clinton killed while in office? He even had Ron White, Commerce Secretary, shot in the back of the head.....on a plane that crashed anyway? Why shoot him? Ahem. And even Troopergate. There was some dude who was smirking after the fact that he basically used a reporter at the L.A. Times to get the story out, and it was all made up.

    That said, as much as I can't stand GWB, I hope the documents weren't falsified. I have no doubt that GWB went missing during his military service, but don't come up with fake docs that can be easily disproved.

    Of course, you could always get Rove to make up the docs, then release them, then be the one to expose them as frauds and the heathen Democrats as the culprits of such a low, heinous act...oh, the treachery.

    Hey, don't call me full of it. This sort of stuff happens all the time. Rove planted a bug in his own office during the race for governor between Clements and White. White had to spend all his time debunking whether or not he planted (he didn't) the bug in Rove's office. Nothing substantive was discussed (thank God for Clements).
     
  12. ima_drummer2k

    ima_drummer2k Member

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    LOL, yeah, I'm sure that's they way it happened.

    This whole thing is pretty sorry. Even if the documents weren't forged, the majority of Americans don't even care. Not only does the left play dirty politics, they aren't even any good at it!
     
  13. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    Again, to be fair, Rove has played FAR dirtier politics than any lefty has in recent memory.
     
  14. bigtexxx

    bigtexxx Member

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    :rolleyes: The hippie lettuce is taking its toll on your memory.

    [​IMG]
     
  15. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

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    This is what the liberals have been reduced to. Forging documents to smear Bush and take the heat off the sinking Kerry campaign. It's disgusting. Desperate people do desperate things. Some of the LLW's(1) are about to explode out of frustration. They are so incredibly desperate right now. The liberal media is doing everything it can to salvage the Kerry boat, including fabricating documents and airing them to smear the President.


    The swifties landed a direct hit on the port side. The Republican Convention landed a direct hit on the starboard side. Kerry's boat is sinking fast.

    (1) Lying Liberal Weenies
     
  16. MadMax

    MadMax Member

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    i don't care how it happened. it casts doubt on everything i read in the media when this crap seems to be happening more and more. it seems like we're calling in to question the veracity of news stories with a greater frequency...and it goes beyond bad sources..it's just flat out lying. flat out making crap up.
     
  17. GladiatoRowdy

    GladiatoRowdy Member

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    I am not a Moore fan, but nothing he has done even begins to compare with the push polling Rove did against McCain in 2000, his planting a bug in his own office, or any number of other dirty tricks.

    Moore is a serial exaggerator, distorter of the facts, and in some cases liar, but Rove is far far worse. Moore is the left's version of the Swift Boat Liars, but neither the SWVFL nor Moore work directly for the candidates.
     
  18. meh

    meh Member

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    This is so true. Democrats attacks on Bush, legit or otherwise, have been pretty harmless to the president. Yet the Republicans can come up with BS like the swiftboat people and Kerry immediately gets screwed in the polls. If it's really all Rove's idea, then the guy's a genius, even if he is incredibly immoral.
     
  19. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    It is interesting that nobody is disputing the facts in the reports, just the typeset.

    Maybe they're forged, maybe they're not. But CBS is standing by the story and Bush hasn't made a peep in protest.
     
  20. ima_drummer2k

    ima_drummer2k Member

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    You mean the "facts" on the forged documents?

    Bush isn't making a peep because he doesn't have to.
     

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