I don't think so. Not saying Christianity is really better historically, though, but I kind of feel that Islam is in some respect where Christianity might have been several centuries ago.
so in theory that would make those ppl non belivers, since they are going straight up against gods words...
see the problem is that muslims dont have LEADERS per say, its just that when someone says what others want to hear, he becomes respected, and no matter what he says goes. so if someone says that in palestine, even though israel is killing little children, we should live in peace with the israelis, they would ignore him and think he is a fool, but if someone says that if a israeli kills a palestinian, kill an israeli coz somewhere someplace it says an eye for an eye(taken out of context ofcourse) they will regard this person as a much more knowlegable person.
I believe the Palestinians have killed a lot more children with their ridiculous suicide attacks. And it is interesting that you are saying that people apparently WANT to be incited to murder.
I agree to an extent: it's more than just the religion being behind the times .... it's the countries where most of Muslims live that are behind the times. Again, other factors exist that mean you cannot just blame the religion itself. And as for what would happen if more Christians sought independence, we'll never know for sure, will we? But I cannot think of any Christian or Jewish groups seeking independence that have been averse to serious violence, can you? (And for folks just jumping in, NO ONE is defending or trying to rationalize the targeting of children!).
Originally posted by adeelsiddiqui ... so if someone says that in palestine, even though israel is killing little children, we should live in peace with the israelis, they would ignore him and think he is a fool, Sounds like Gandhi to me. but if someone says that if a israeli kills a palestinian, kill an israeli coz somewhere someplace it says an eye for an eye(taken out of context ofcourse) they will regard this person as a much more knowlegable person. Then you cannot help people being idiots, can you? What you describe is a recipe for eternal violence.
DD, Culture clash? To some extent, that's probably very true. But it's also: 1) Communication problems; 2) Backlash from US and Western policies (over hundreds of years); 3) The tough, both sides right/wrong clash in Israel/Palestine; 4) Poor conditions (economical and/or political) in many Muslim counrties; etc. etc. I don't buy the 'Fuedalism v Democracy', though. I don't even understand the argument. Who is motivated to 'protect' feudalism?
There is nothing wrong with Islamic doctrines per se. The problem is allowing religion, any religion, dictate government policy. Before European governments were completely secularized, Christians were perfectly able to commit terrible atrocities (inquisitions, crusades, witch hunts, etc). Today, some of the fervent Christian fundamentalists still scare me a little, but fortunately, in a secular democracy, their extremism can be contained. Too many Muslim countries give their religious figures political power. Part of this is our fault. What does Palestine, Iraq, and Chechnya have in common: They were products of imperial colonization. England, France, United States, and Russia had invaded, colonized, and meddled in these countries for so long that these countries had no stable secularized governments. When secular political institutions are unstable, the religious leaders step up to fill the power vacuum. These religious leaders are demagogues, and nothing rile up followers like hatred and xenophobia. I'm not condoning terrorist acts. But let us not forget that we also played a part in setting up environments where religious fundamentalism flourish. Let us also not forget that Muslims are also victims of terrorism. When the Russians and the Israelis conduct their "countermeasures," a lot of innocent Muslims are killed; when the United Nations set up embargoes on Iraq oil, one million Iraqis, mostly children, died as a result.
Where is the shock and outrage from the Muslim world over the actions of cold blooded killers like these terrorists? Are these actions condemned or applauded? Is it that we just do not have the shock and outrage of the Muslim world reported to us here, or is it just not there?
I think a lot of Muslims in the Middle East do not have access fair and unbiased news. Muslims who live in free democracies have always decried terrorism. For example, the French Muslims have spoke out passionately against the kidnapping of the French journalists.
I think you have to consider that they may also be afraid of being targets of terrorism by speaking out.
I haven't read the entire thread so forgive me if i'm repeating someone else, but Putin and Russia really need to develop new methods of dealing with terrorists. The haphazard way they carry out their raids (gas and guns blazing) is idiotic.
Gandhi was an exceptional case, but even while he was protesting his great and wonderful ideology, there were other indians that didnt give a crap about what he said, they attacked the british, and they listened to the leaders that told them to attack. Trust me there were MANY MANY more people that just ignored what ghandi said at first, than those that accepted it.. Its just that our history is written to show ghandi as a saviour from the start of all of this, but if yuo ask most older indians, they will tell you the reality. It is a recipe for eternal violence, until these people actually educate themselves in islam, and stop taking others word for it, and see that it condones this type of violence
DD - I've said this before. There is no top tier of Islamic religious leaders... Unless you count the leaders of countries (which also have no real claim to authority outside of their lands), like Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran. Please feel free to name anyone you consider a "top-tier" religious leader; let's look up their responses, if they have any.
There are many in the Middle east that do speak out against terroriism, and they get all the news we do. but OUR media never shows an interview of an arab citizen condoning the violence ever. and it may even be a fear factor that they rarely come out in the media and say it, but there are many many people there that condone this terrorism.. example: i was in saudi this past summer, and my next door neighbour and i would chat everytime we went to the mosque, and he would shake his head at all the kidnappings of Americans that were going on in our city, and he was soo exited when he told me about how there was a gun fight and how the terrorist were killed on the street by the brave saudi policemen. and that just gave me so much hope that there were many many more citizens just like him, nd i asked him what do ppl at the office think of this stuff, and he said 99% of them know its against islam, and are always nice to the "white" ppl at work, and are hospitable...
exactly, even the imam of Meccah, has said that suicide bombings are haraam, i think sheik abdurrahman sudais, he said this during his visit to london. and i dont think there are many more that have a higher authority than him, but then again he is just an imam, not a "political leader" just one that leads the prayers.
we dont get it reported, heck it almost never gets reported. but the media will show you a video clip of some idiots celebrating tthis horrendos action.... these actions are condemed by a vast number of MUSLIMS all over the world.
hey im not pointing fingers but for every israeli killed 3 palestinians die, but im not here to argue that at all, what im saying is that people dont want to sit back and take it up the ***, they want to fight for what they think is rightfully theirs... its natural, the indians did it, the african slaves, the jews (during the holocost)... its just that too many muslims have gone to extremes such as suicide bombings(which again is illegal in islam)
