I disagree, I think Marc is much better than Dampier. Dampier frustrates me so much when I watch him. I mean he has hands made out of stone. They aren't soft at all- he drops so many passes, it's not even funny. From what I've heard, Warriors management is not happy with Dampier at all after signing him to such a huge contract. In 98-99, when he was the full time starting center, he averaged 8.8 points and 7.6 rebounds, and has only played a combined 64 games over the past 2 seasons. Dampier at times, doesn't seem to want to play, at least Foyle hustles at all times on the court. Foyle, has very little skill, but he is a extremely good shotblocker, something Dampier lacks. But both Foyle and Dampier frustrate me. You see, I'm a semi-Warriors fan, as I have lived in the Bay Area for the past 5 years after living the first 15 years of my life in Houston. Trust me, being even a semi- Warriors fan sucks. I think that next to being a Grizzlies fan, being a Warriors fan is the worst. ------------------ Check out my site: The Steve Francis Fan Site
Well, I have heard this argument applied to a number of postings when comparing a player versus another player. I have heard it comparing Hakeem to Robinson, Hakeem to LaFrentz and The bottom line is this ..... I would rather have a player that may that is may, have less or equal potential, less or equal balanced defensive/offensive skills. less or equal height,less or equal experience ...... than a player that has all these superlatives but can only play in a fraction of the games. So please, stop comparing guys like Dampier and Jackson unless you would like to first compare the number of games they are able to show up and actually play the damn game. No one here doubts that Hakeem can out play someone of Jackson's calibre. Or that Dampier had/has the potential and talent to out shine Jackson at this time in Jackson's career. But Jackson will be there hustling for all 80+ games this year and the foreseeable future .... and the fact of the matter is Hakeem will not. Nor will Dampier. ------------------ Addendum: Simple math: Dampier = $6.5M/year = available to play in 43 games a year = cost $151,000.00 per game. Jackson = projected $4.5/M year = available to play in 68 games a year (played in far fewer but was available) = $66,000 per game. Now even if you leave the projections out of it and take straight games played and cost of games. Dampier 43 actual games suited up @ $6.5M = $151,000 per game Jackson 48 actual games suited up @ projected($4.5M) = $93,000 per game and with double the PPG and 150% of the rebounds of Dampier. [This message has been edited by oeilpere (edited August 01, 2001).]
oeilpere-What is the view of Jackson's health? After one year, I wouldn't exactly be so sure Jackson will be ultra durable. He played 10 less games than Dream last year (58-48). Were those considered fluke injuries? ------------------ "Larry Johnson, who spent the last 48 hours railing against the world, what a pathetic performance by this sad human being." -The one and only Bill Walton
To second NIKE's point, how can you guarantee that Jackson "will be there hustling for all 80+ games this year and the foreseeable future" when he's never played an 80-game season in his life? (Jackson played 48 games last year -- and hit the wall rather badly after 2 months in the starting lineup. Dampier played 43.) And his "hustle" is overrated, too. Don't make me break out my explanation of the "pylon" again. ------------------ "I personally wouldn't give up my college years for anything. It was the funnest time I have ever had. But with the money they are getting, you can't blame a kid for coming out." —Jazz forward Scott Padgett, demonstrating the value of a college education [This message has been edited by Swopa (edited August 01, 2001).]
Two things then I have to .... I mean really, really have to get some work done here ...... (LOL) 1. Jackson's hustle was well documented and discussed up to his late season groin injury. His scouting reports from the Eurpoean scouts showed agressiveness and dioggedness during games. He was active in the game all the time. Both Jamison and St Jean remarked on this aspect of his game in the press throughout the season. (despite St Jean's clearly self serving down play of Jackson's attractiveness in post season comments.) He was the clear choice and front runner to Miller and Kenyon Martin for Rookie of the Year up until his injury. \ 2. Jackson's injury. A groin pull that was tenaciously slow to heal. As a matter of fact it kept him from playing fulltilt in some games and he probably returned on an early occasion far too soon. He finally reinjured it and lost the concensus ROY, the impetus to push his FA expectations and other season benefits. As it is he has now fully recovered and has been playing full contact this summer. ------------------
OP, Why do you feel that it's fading? Have Issel & LaFrentz patched things up between them? ------------------ A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still.
I'm watching the Vince Carter signing press conference right now, and when asked "what is the main obstacle to signing Hakeem", both Vince and Glen Grunwald just laughed and smiled....then Grunwald goes "we are very optiimistic that we will be able to get something done shortly". From both of their reactions, I am very convinced that Dream will be a Raptor imminently. ------------------
Hottoddie's comment on Denver: The issue appears to be that they will not make anymore acute moves until they have finalized the management search. They are also in a bit of quandry ( ... used that word once today already didn't I .... ) with some postions and to start fooling with a positions thatseems to be fairly stable seems foolhardy. My gut feeling on this is that retaining him is a far lesser evil than upseting the roster. The other thing is that losing LaFrentz would require having him replaced by another center, and the available centers are drying up. Again, although getting less a feeling of accomadating a trade, I think Denver will still let him go, just that his cost maybe getting prohibitive. Pippen's comment about the news conference: I think they are salivating over the prospects. They know the chances of Hakeem being in Toronto next season, instead of Houston is growing. But I might caution Vince and Glen, that Hakeem is very slippery. Sometimes, what he says one day and what he does the next, are not always congruent. ------------------
CBFC, So reading your post I'm not sure if you are calling Jackson a "mediocre center" or "another good player" that GS let go. I've never read you take on him. Do you like him? Can he rebound? What is you response to someone worrying about him loading himself with stats like Bison Dele?
Crisp -- Allow me to clarify. Thanks for asking. Indeed -- I was referring to Dampier and Foyle as the mediocre ones. They really suck. Jackson is fine. He's good. He looks weird in a Golden State uniform because he is not an embarassment to the sport. We should sign him. Why not? I mean, he is not going to block 53 shots per game, he's not going to school Shag O Neal, and he is not going to redefine the position. But he is not going to foul out in two seconds like Cato at his worst, either. He's functional. F-i-n-e. Jason Collier is not functional. Kelvin Cato is not yet functional. Jackson is supremely functional. An All-Star center is not what we are banking on to move us into the elite, obviously -- in fact, he may be perfect because of this. He is humble, an overachiever, and knows the limits of that overachievement. Sort of Chucky-esque. If he were 6'8" playing the four, Jackson would be out of work. But since he is 6'10" and has the guts to pound it out against the Western Conference Monoliths -- and there are so few others like him -- he can get 5 mil. I think he is definitely worth it. We have everyone else we need. We dont need anymore stars. We have plenty. Maybe even one too many ... So yeah, lets sign him but not expect him to go 20-10 for us. He will not replace Hakeem, or the hope that Hakeem brought to fans or the threat he brought to opponents. It will be hard to get used to, but we are no longer a center-anchored team, either practically or conceptually -- with the exception of 1982-83 (post Moses, pre-Sampson) the Rockets will not lead from the center spot for the first time since 1976. Sure, Jackson would work nicely. The same way Mario did and Robert Horry did at their respective positions. He is fluid, looks comfortable on the court. Its an easy fit. But its going to be hard to watch us without an elite center anywhere on the roster. Bye Dream, good luck old buddy CBFC ------------------ Join the Chucky Brown Fan Club
Do you think, as Vince was flying over Dream for the game winning dunk, he was thinking to himself, "Man, I would love for this guy to be on my team." The last few years, Dream has been a tease. "Look what I can do." Injury. Return. Lack of chemistry. Injury. "Look what I can do." I hope he does well. I hope he enjoys his role. I hope he gets enough touches to stay happy. I hope his health doesn't fail him. But now, at least, I won't have to worry about it.
Thanks for the info OP, have you heard anything else about Cato/Anderson to Atlanta? What do you think the chances of Keon Clark and the trade exemption are? Do you think we will get spurn by Hakeem and Toronto and ultimately have to choose between nothing? takeout garbage? or one draft choice (and exception). What do you think we would do with that exemption if we received it? ------------------
Renounce it, unless we can fit Mo Taylor in without renouncing it. Trade exceptions take up cap space. Jackson doesn't excite me, but he does provide toughness, which we lack. At the same time, we lack an eraser, and Jackson doesn't really provide that. Our defense up front will be weak until Griffin matures. Hopefully, he's more durable than he showed last year. Dissapointing news on Lafrentz. Couldn't really expect to get him anyhow, though. ------------------ "Larry Johnson, who spent the last 48 hours railing against the world, what a pathetic performance by this sad human being." -The one and only Bill Walton
I guess I still qualify as a newbie, so I'll take a newbie liberty and ask a newbie question: oeilpere, what is your story? everyone seems to look to you for the officialest of official scoops. I'm just wondering who you are and what your connections are. if it's like a "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you" kind of thing, then nevermind. I'm just still trying to figure out who all the personalities are and what they bring to the bbs table. also, how do you pronounce your boardname? it drives me crazy that I can't sound it out in my head whenever I read it. hooked on phonics, chievous minniefield ------------------ houston rockets = 2 utah jazz = 0
Thanks for the info OP... Do you think Golden St. might accept a S&T of Marc Jackson for Walt Williams? We'd get our pivot man and fix the glut at SF. The Warriors get someone that can actually shoot and whose contract only has a year left on it. It seems like it would be better than nothing. ------------------ This post contains no smilies, you must judge my seriousness on your own...
Houston - Toronto games will be fun this year. Toronto will have more talent, but wont be able to keep up with our style of play, as the case last year. As an aside, Ive mentioned this before, but, is anyone else not at least happy about the fact that if Hakeem had to go anywhere, it is Toronto. I mean, I really liked the look of Toronto last year, and, especially with Oakley gone, it does seem to be a very classy organization with a lot of Talent and good coaching. IF Hakeem ends up there, I will eagerly watch the Raptors next season and wish Hakeem the best of luck. ------------------
Oeilpere, What about Sabonis? What information do you have in regards to Sabonis? I particularly like the idea to send Hakeem in a S&T to Toronto get the 5 million ex. sign Jackson with that ex. and sign Sabonis for (let's say) 2.5 million. That will allow us to sign Mo, Moochie, and Maybe Anderson, and still be under the CAP room. Thanks in advance ------------------
Shandon: Early on I had heard that Shandon was a lock to go to Atlanta. Have heard absolutely nothing for weeks. I suspect that has faded for whatever reason. Cato: The last solid testiment on Cato was a move with Chicago involved. That was pre- and post- draft night. I know Cato lately was a primary goat in the "sacrificial cleansing" required to make more money available for Hakeem but that was without success. And, I was told recently by a northern media friend that Cato trade talks were still alive in Chicago as late as last week. Let me say something about Cato. The quandry is this: If Hakeem is signed to the Rockets we still would have needed to either keep Cato or replace him with a competent understudy to Hakeem. If Hakeem leaves we either retain Cato and still have the duty to bring in a talented center to complement our roster. But, retaining Cato and relying on him to play some semi-literate, proficient split time with some up and comer(not Collier) is a too scarry a prospectus. The third alternative after losing Hakeem is to go after someone like Jackson who can handle most of the starter duties. That essentially is the attractiveness of someone like Jackson. He eliminates our dependence on Cato. Walt Williams: Golden State would be better served to take something and frankly if things went to the Rocket's optimal ... they would have to take anyone we send them or take no compensation at all. The Warriors may need a veteran back there, but remember this, they have so many guys on contract (14 with guaranteed contracts) and so many attached to the roster (18 or so) that they need to winnow out some chafe, reduce their roster and some how not lose the talent they have. Antawn gets an extension this week, a couple of others are untouchable, but the basic ingredient in Warriorville is you are a starter, or injured, or semi-talented redundancy. A guy like Walt who is expendable for us, or Cato is may be less expendable with Hakeem gone wouyld not hurt that team. Unfortuantely they would probably want to throw in a couple of their cast-offs which we don't need. But if hakeem is gone and Jackson is interested .... we are in the driver's seat. ------------------ [This message has been edited by oeilpere (edited August 01, 2001).]
You can't sign and trade someone using the median exception. The only "cajoling" would be some sort of side deal (say, a 2nd-round pick) in exchange for not matching an offer below $4.5M/year. ------------------ "I personally wouldn't give up my college years for anything. It was the funnest time I have ever had. But with the money they are getting, you can't blame a kid for coming out." —Jazz forward Scott Padgett, demonstrating the value of a college education [This message has been edited by Swopa (edited August 01, 2001).]
. I am not sure that is a good idea, if we are back in the FA market (for the last time) next year. Then we need Walts contract coming off to make a big run at a all-star callibar FA . Unless he can be included to sweeten a deal now, to move Cato!!! Jackson can be signed straight up, or we can try to do a S&T with Anderson,etc.... ------------------
