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Sistani Arrives to Break US Seige of Najaf Shrine.

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by glynch, Aug 26, 2004.

  1. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Things are complex. From a Time Magazine piece.
    ********

    Moqtada's Here to Stay
    The lesson of Najaf is that Sadr's radical populism has a large following


    ...Reports from the frontline leave no doubt that U.S. and Iraqi forces were closing in on the shrine, while many Sadrist fighters had already fled. But their "defense" of the most revered of Shiite shrines under fire from a widely loathed "infidel" army has further enhanced Moqtada Sadr's already considerable political standing among Iraqi Shiites — a fact that has led the interim government to stress that even after three weeks of violent defiance, it wants to draw Sadr into the political process, for the simple reason that he's too dangerous to them outside. Indeed, the government will quietly breathe a sigh of relief if Sadr emerges from the standoff unscathed, because if he'd been killed during the battle his followers would likely have waged a low-intensity guerrilla war against the U.S. and its Iraqi allies for the foreseeable future.

    The political victory of Sadr's Mehdi army may only be coming into view with the resolution as orchestrated by Sistani. Najaf is in ruins, and while many of the city's residents will blame Sadr for choosing to fight there, there's little doubt that throughout Iraq and the wider Arab world the inclination will be to hold the U.S. responsible. Sadr's message of uncompromising opposition to the American presence in Iraq may resonate even more strongly.

    Media accounts usually contrast Sadr's radicalism with Sistani's moderation, and draw attention to the fact that the latter is a far more influential figure among Iraqi Shiites. But the fact that Sistani appears to have been compelled to rush back from Britain — where he was undergoing treatment for a heart condition — in order to lead a mass march on Najaf is an indicator that things are not quite that simple.

    The Grand Ayatollah is a strictly religious figure, whose authority is recognized and venerated — even as it is, effect, challenged to move in a more radical direction — by Sadr's movement. Sistani is a "Marjah," an object of emulation in the Shiite tradition, whose position is attained through decades of patient learning and Islamic jurisprudence. Sadr is a junior cleric, although his supporters have taken to referring to him as a Hujjat al-Islam, or jurisprudent, the next step up the ladder, although most observers doubt he has completed the requisite studies.

    But Sadr's challenge occurs less in the realm of religion than in the realm of politics,

    link
     
  2. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    I read a lot of quotes from Sadr fighters saying that Sadr would of course do what Sistani told him to do.
     
  3. AroundTheWorld

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    I hope that Sadr will be brought to justice.
     
  4. Surfguy

    Surfguy Member

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    My personal opinion is Sadr was willing to sacrifice his whole Medhi army not for protecting religious sites(which everyone knows we would never enter or destroy anyway) but for protecting his own ass against the murder charges he was to be arrested for. All of those Medhi army people died for no reason in my opinion. They achieved nothing except helping to ensure destruction of areas around the Mosque. Well, they did achieve what Sadr wanted all along which was to get out of the murder charges regardless of how many of his followers died. So, I guess he achieved his objective. If they were truly revolting over the occupation and new Iraqi government(of which they were invited to participate and be involved in), then Sadr would not have given in. I think that olive branch of clearing him of the murder charges was one of, if not, the key reason for giving in. Congrats Sadr...you only killed hundred of your followers in the process. Sure, they are martyrs now so all is well. The idea of protecting the mosque was bogus. That was just their staging grounds cause they knew we wouldn't directly attack them there.
     
    #24 Surfguy, Aug 27, 2004
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2004
  5. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Surfguy, I don't think Sadr's purpose was to protect the Mosque. He was using the Mosque for protection.

    I think Sadr is just acting like a politician. He is appealing to the great majority of Itaqis who want the US invaders to just leave. Someone is going to fill that void.

    Don't forget that very few Iraqis other than Chalabi and the exiles wanted us to go to war in the first place. Once it happend, many were glad Sadam was gone, but then wanted us to leave.

    The neocons of course are determined to stay for many years, so the killing goes on.
     
  6. Dubious

    Dubious Member

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    The Iraqis have known nothing but a fuedal system where the strongest rule. If we aren't there the nation would devolve into a Sunni/Shia/ Kurdish civil war. Removing Saddam and developing a democratic Iraq is a noble cause (GWB) but may not be an acheivable goal (Colin Powell).

    These Middle Easten fuedal leaders and Mullahs have thousands of years experience in politics and posturing. Sun Tzu and Machiavelli could probably take a lessen from these guys. Sistani and Moqtada Sadr both look like they are playing us, let's just hope the big five-sided think tank is allowing them look that way to chill out the violence while they are prepareing a secular Iraqi defense force strong enough to be the final arbrtrator in future civil disputes.
     
  7. glynch

    glynch Member

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    Winners and losers: per Juan Cole

    I think the big losers from the Najaf episode (part deux) are the Americans. They have become, if it is possible, even more unpopular in Iraq than they were last spring after Abu Ghuraib, Fallujah and Najaf Part 1. The US is perceived as culturally insensitive for its actions in the holy city of Najaf.

    The Allawi government is also a big loser. Instead of looking decisive, as they had hoped, they ended up looking like the lackeys of neo-imperialists.

    The big winner is Sistani, whose religious charisma has now been enhanced by solid nationalist credentials. He is a national hero for saving Najaf.

    For Muqtada, it is a wash. He did not have Najaf until April, anyway, and can easily survive not having it. His movement in the slums of the southern cities is intact, even if its paramilitary has been weakened.

    posted by Juan @ 8/27/2004 06:52:17 AM from juancole.com
     
  8. Surfguy

    Surfguy Member

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    Part of that Iraqi double standard. It's okay to use a religious city/site as a base of military operations by an illegally formed armed militia and attack Americans with hordes of militiamen eminating from the shrine. But, it's not okay for the US to respond to these attacks while avoiding this very same shrine because Najaf is a holy city. So, that translates into cultural insensitivity. That is laughable. Chaos and violence can reign in the space of religious sites as long as cultural insensitivities do not occur by the foreigners. :rolleyes: Honestly, when something like that occurs and your under fire, cultural sensitivity is not at the top of the priority list as then it's all out war.
     
  9. HayesStreet

    HayesStreet Member

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    Interesting that sistani was asked by an Iranian delegation to allow them more interaction and were 'vehemently rebuffed.' Considering that the proponents of Islam continually yap yap about how almost all muslims are peace loving and tolerant, could it just be possible that Sistani is an example (finally) of this?

    Not that Jose Cole is particularly qualified to talk about what's happening in Iraq. Another talking head trying to get his name in the public eye so he can write a book.
     

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