Totally fair. Prime for prime, totally fair. I disagree but it's marginally beyond a coin flip, call it 55/45, 60/40 on LBJ's best day. Great points and those are largely intangibles that I didn't address and you're right they are part of MJ's legacy and some of them at the very forefront of it (killer instinct). Thanks for illustrating the kind of myopia I was specifically addressing. I'll leave it at we strongly disagree. 2 diff era's? DAFUQ? LMFAO he literally only missed 1 year of NBA playoffs...how could the NBA be 2 different era's over a 12 month period? You're definitely entitled to your opinion though, completely disjointed and detached from reality as it may be. It's a shame b/c the first set of points you made were really good. Then you started talking basketball. This was kind of my point. Who holds Drexler's Blazers, Barkley's Suns, GP/Rainman's Sonics, and Malone/Stockton Jazz anywhere near the same tier as the Bad Boys and Bird's Celtics? All of the guys he beat in the finals played a hell of a lot more than 6 years and never won a single chip, in their prime, between them. The Celtics and Pistons that Jordan couldn't beat won 5. In fairness to MJ, Magic was GREAT, simply sensational in the regular season, the year he beat the Lakers. But that was a 33 year old Magic, a finished Worthy, and no Kareem so it wasn't the Lakers he beat it was just Magic. But, this version of Magic was still the best player Jordan every beat in the playoffs so he deserves his flowers. Thanks homey, you must have missed all the sarcastic references w/ 99'ers and Houston sports radio personalities. Or, maybe you didn't and we just have contrasting taste in humor - all good G. But you can save the cringe shtick.
I think you won this thread. G freaking G's. It truly may be this simple and I just overcomplicate it. And if it is this simple - fair enough, I can understand that.
wesbruke also had a big killer instinct. he just can't kill to save his life. which is why he's only tier 2 goat.
I guess you are too young to have watched Michael Jordan through out his career - because if you had, this wouldn’t be a serious question. Michael Jordan went to the NBA Finals 6 times and won 6 titles and was Finals MVP 6 times. Had he not played baseball after his father was killed, there is a real chance he would have 8 titles… and even when he retired, he likely could have won another couple had the Bulls stayed together. He did beat the Pistons in the ECF to win his first title and the only reason he didn’t beat the Celtics or Pistons sooner is because the team around him was really bad. As far longevity goes - Jordan played in a different era, when nutrition and medicine wasn’t as good - and dude literally had ZERO left to prove… when the Bulls broke up, he had won 6 straight titles when he played a full season. There is no one in the history of the NBA that is on par with Jordan as a legend and individual player. Bill Russell is the closest as a winner/closer but he wasn’t the best player each year on the Celtics like Jordan was with the Bulls. As for LeBron James, he is an all time great - top 2-3 player ever. He is like Kareem.
Jordan was the first guy who wasn't a big man to win multiple championships as the team's best player. He did it with pullup and turnaround jumpers instead of a hook shot or drive and dish offenses. He made shorter people believe they could be good at basketball. In doing so, he made the sport a worldwide game. Tyson was probably the better fighter than Ali, but Ali was the best ever because of what he did for the sport. Same argument could be made for Babe Ruth vs Ken Griffey ect. Someone could argue that Larry Bird did it before him but Larry Bird had Kevin Mchale and Robert Parish. Jordan did it with guys like Bill Cartwright.
if we’re doing jordan vs lerbon, let’s do apple to apple and put them right next to each other. lerbon obviously took it to new heights and killed it. he the real goat.
Not trying to nitpick but Cartwright did have a 20ppg season(or two) before joining Bulls, so he basically was regulated to defense/rebounder/toughness role once he got to the Jordan offense, I mean Bulls team Jordan started winning big when the East powerhouse super teams got old/injured, but those losing series made them battle tested and prepared them for what was to come and they were next up and delivered with 6 ships
It will fade though with the newer generations that have casual interest in NBA basketball and that never saw him play. Tik Toking and Insta-ing their way thru .....
No need to be a condescending dick to start your engagement. I'm in my mid 40's and have bled sports since channel freaking 20 was showing Rockets games in the 80's. I get that you have contacts at the collegiate and professional level, particularly in Houston sports, and you bring real value as a forum member owing to that. It's for that reason I won't be a dick back; I'm just going to ignore your post. Historically, solid arguments don't start with "you must not..." They make for great pre-pubescient TikTok gotcha's though.
This is what took me 4 posts to write. His dominance, once he started dominating at the team level, is unquestionable and was essentially flawless for 6/7 years. But he didn't start there. He couldn't dethrone the 80's powerhouses until they got old/retired and he got better.
Magic was appreciably better than Kareem in the 80's although with those few exceptions you're generally right. And the disparity in production and value b/n Kareem/Parish and the Cartright's (not withstanding the punch he landed on Isiah) of the world is significant and likely supports your point. Thanks for bringing this up. It's, once again, something I don't appreciate enough about Jordan.
I did not intend to be a condescending dick, but reading it in print I can see how you could take it that way, so I apologize. No, Michael Jordan did not beat the Celtics in their prime - but that was largely because of the team around Jordan compared to the Celtics teams. What I can say about that is that Larry Bird, Kevin McHale and Dennis Johnson all said that Michael Jordan was the best player that they ever played. He did beat Magic Johnson in the Finals. Magic was 31 years old, and was in his absolute prime, he had one of his 2-3 best seasons ever that year. He also did beat the Pistons in the ECF to win his first NBA Finals. The Pistons had won the title before - and Jordan broke through and beat them. Also, the last 2/3rds of his career he basically toyed with the league - 6 straight titles and 6 straight Finals MVP's - it wasn't just the titles, it was the fact that he won and was unquestionably the best player on the floor, and he literally always came through in big moments and lifted his team up. He did come back the last handful of games and lost in the ECF, but that is largely forgotten because he was out of shape and came out of playing baseball for two years. The stuff with the Wizards - if you remember, he did that because he was promised part ownership. It is the combo of invincibility and dominance that makes Jordan considered the best ever. LeBron has been to more Finals that Jordan - but he hasn't won them all, and he hasn't always lifted his team up or been the best player on the court - he has looked human at times - so that is why a lot of people so view him as the best ever. It is also why I put him next to Kareem. They both are arguably the best ever, they also played a long time, were very consistent - they just lack the sheer dominance and aura that Jordan has.
My nephew in Brazil has taken a shine to the Rockets, and to the NBA in general, and he asked me who's the greatest NBA player among Jordan, Bryant, and LBJ. I gave it consideration if simply because I wanted to be objective. Bryant had Jordan's cut-your-heart-out mentality. LBJ is a gigantic point guard freak of nature. They all play(ed) defense and share(d) the ball. But my answer to my nephew: no true debate. Michael Jordan. Of course, I had to school him on the underrated great The Dream, who even MJ and Shaq held in the highest esteem.
I know the LeBron stans will always try to make these arguments due to LeBrons longevity of greatness. The fact is that LeBron surrendered his claim to GOAT status when he went to Miami. You are right Jordan didn't beat the bad boys initially, but he kept at it until he did and that will always mean a ton. LeBron forced his way into being paired with other hall of famers...and still failed to win the title twice. Also, almost all of LeBrons Eastern conference title runs were against trash tier competition. He should have been in the finals every year as a top 5 all time player with other all stars around him. Uncoincedentally, he went west and immediately missed the postseason because LeCoast regular season wasn't good enough. Meanwhile Jordan had to get though Bird and the bad boys to get to the finals.
If Jordan never retires but loses to Hakeem twice in the finals to drop to 6-2, is that better than him getting dropped by Orlando in the ECSF? If a 35 year old Jordan drags the Bulls to the finals in 99' only to lose to the Duncan-Robinson Spurs, does that tarnish his legacy? If LeBron went 4-0 instead of 4-6 in the finals, is he a better player for it?
I do not think one or two losses would make him less revered or less hated. A few happier faces on CF.
