I disagree. Read Coon's description more closely. The traded player exception is not available when you aggregate two salaries and use them with the assigned players exeption. Trading Howard and Gaines for the Rox TE does not involve the use of the assigned player exception and therefore creates a single TE for ORL equal to the combined salaries of Howard and Gaines. ".....non-simultaneous trades are not available when a team trades away multiple players (aggregates) using the assigned player exception. Let's say a team has a $4 million player and a $5 million player, and uses the assigned player exception to trade for an $8 million player. Even though they trade away more salary ($9 million) than they receive ($8 million), the fact that they aggregated the two players using the assigned player exception means they do not gain a traded player exception. It is sometimes possible to reorganize trades so that players technically are not aggregated, and therefore teams do gain a trade exception."
I'm not so sure realgm is incorrect, based on the fact <a href="http://www.realgm.com/src_trade_exception.php">realgm reports $2.2m in TEs for Orlando</a>, from last year. Maybe realgm is merely slacked in taking those TEs off their site, as being used in this trade. With those Orlando TEs, I've got a trade scenario that is a mere $388K away from working to produce realgm's new TE for us. I'd appreciate any responses, because it would be great if CD did pull off a longer lasted TE as realgm is reporting. First off, I agree that the trade as explained in the openning post is wrong, per GATER and others. I also believe that the trade could have gone down with no exceptions being used, per posts by mfclark, aelliott and others. If we assume realgm.com is correct, there seems to be a very close way to produce this new exception. <ol><li>Trade Howard and Lue ($6.471m) to Houston for our TE, Orlando gets a TE as a result (this exactly produces a remainder of $573,000 that realgm reports for us--if one believes our TE was $6.99 vs $6.90 to begin with).<li>Trade SF, KC, CM ($23.67m) to Orlando for TMac and Gaines ($14.653m) leaving a gap of $9.045m* from Orlando's end, but producing *exactly* the $5.48m exception realgm reports for us (this is the difference in Francis's BYC going-out salary vs coming in).</ol>* -- The gap of $9.045m for Orlando is made up by the TE produced in #1 ($6.417) plus 4 TEs ($2.28m) that realgm reported Orlando got last year. That still leaves a gap of $348,000 ($23.698m minus $23.350m). $348,000 in a $23.7m trade is very close. So close that we might be working with slightly inaccurate numbers, or Orlando might have had slightly more TE value from last year. Another possibility is the trade actually included a minimum salary guy being traded in roundtrip fashion...that is, coming our way in trade #1 and going back to Orlando in trade #2. (Not sure if that's legal, though, but Orlando did have a guy making $366K--Bogans.) <b>bottomline</b>: $388,000 is not so far off in a $23.7m trade for me to second guess the validity of realgm's reports of trade exceptions.
correction: the scenario above is a mere $348,000 away from working and producing the exceptions that realgm reports. I was trying to preview to change the $388s to $348s, but didn't get them all.
heyp, maybe you did something else, but it looks like you just aggregated all the TE's together to make up a gap in a multiplayer trade. since the TE can't be combined with players to make a trade work, then the 9.045M cannot be made up with combined TE's from orlando and houston. it now appears that it is possible to make the trade with francis leaving for nothing with orlando's new TE from howard/lue and give us a 5.48M TE. it seems to work and RealGM is reporting it as such and it extends our TE instead of letting it end in september, so if i work on the premise that CD and les want a TE, then I guess I now believe we have a 5.48M TE lasting until next year on whatever date in june we did the trade. does that work? trading a BYC guy to a team with a TE greater than his BYC value? we can give francis away b/c you can always give away more. does francis look like $5.48M coming to orlando, taken care of by the howard/lue TE?
Well, the Chicago paper reported the TE from the TMac trade- not that they'd necessarily be in the know. As aelliott's post indicates, it's a matter of if you can have multiple simultaneous and non simultaneous parts. heyp-Re:roundtripping Bogans...If you send him in part 1, it would increase the trade exception Orlando would receive, but wouldn't it then increase the gap from Orlando's end, since we'd be sending them more salary (SF/CM/KC+Bogans?).
i'm not quite sure i understand that part or how it's applied. if howard and lue works for our TE and francis for nothing works using their new TE, and then mobley+cato for tmac+gaines works with the APE, then why can't that all just be considered 3 different trades reported as one? or does mobley/cato for tmac/gaines just barely not work using the APE?
That's what you're forgetting- we only could get a 5.48 mill exception out of Francis, but Orlando needs 10.96 mill in TE to be able to take him for nothing. That's where the simultaneous vs. non simultaneous comes in.
yeah, you're right. I needed to extend it out to 3 simultaneous trades. But, it doesn't really matter to the bottomline. Take Francis out of the #2 part above. The trade is CM/Cato for TMac/Gaines. That works with no TE, but produces a TE for Orlando of $1.915m. That TE is then applied to a Francis for nothing part. It's just a matter of moving the numbers around. You still end up with *only* a $348k gap to make this work where the realgm trade exceptions are correct. As for the multiple simultanous vs non simultaneous trades, doesn't Coon pretty much describe multiple simultaneous trades in his explanation of how TEs are involved in multiple player trades. Here, we aren't really talking about simultaneous. This is technically, one trade following by a 2nd, followed by a 3rd to scatter the production and usage of the TEs.
sorry, no editing: so, in summary 1. Orlando started out with $2.8m in TEs, per realgm. 2. Howard/Lue for our TE gives them another $6.417m in TEs. 3. CM/Cato for TMac/Gaines gives them another $1.915m TE. 4. The aggragate all those TEs to trade no one for Francis.
It's my understanding when both teams are over the cap the only way one team can acquire a trade exception is if the other team has a trade exception to give them. But since you can only combine a draft choice and not players for the TE than that would rule out Orlando gaining $1.915m in TE for trading TMac/Gaines for CM/Cato. You can not gain TE along with the 115% rule.
For clarity's sake (before anyone asks), only one player can be outgoing to create a TE. Orlando is sending out multiple players- it would need to be reorganized into 2 parts: CM/Cato for TMac; then Gaines for nothing (all a single transaction from Houston's POV, multi-part for Orlando). That'd create a TE of Gaines' salary, and a TE for the difference of TMac and CM/Cato, combining for the $1.9. Are we sure that a bunch of little TEs can be aggregated? aelliott- What do you see the problem with multiple simultaneous/non-simultaneous parts? So we're all in agreement that this deal could likely have gone down without any use of the TE (and thus, Orlando's side could look like a singular transaction of TMac/Howard/Gaines/Lue out, Francis/Mobley/Cato in). It's a matter of setting things right from Houston's side, no?
note: this roundtripping Bogans is not really necessary unless the accurrancy of all the salaries is perfectly correct. If the roundtripping is needed to happen (and if it's legal), it increases Orlando's TE in part 1, and increases the 115% allowable Houston can take back in Part 2, thus actually giving Orl more TE to use. It works like this: 1. Trade Howard and Gaines (not Lue) and Bogans for our TE. That produces $6.626m. 2. Trade CM/Cato/Bogan ($13.1m) for TMac and Lue ($14.8m). This works under the 115% rule. This produces a $1.7m TE for Orlando. Aggragating those two TEs with Orlando's original $2.8m TE, gives them $11.1m in TEs to use against a Francis for no one trade.
NIKE, yeah we all agree the trade needs not TEs being used. Just continuing this thread to see if realgm can possibly be correct, because that's good for us, if they are. well, why are we saying we have a $6.9 exception in the first place. The Rice trade only produced $6.5m, right? I assume the Moochie trade produced the rest. but Coon does say this: <i> The exception to this rule is that teams may combine multiple traded player exceptions together to form one larger traded player exception if the traded player exceptions are generated and consummated in the same trade.</i> I guess that means they can't combine any previous TEs with newly generated ones? If that's true, then I see no way this works. Really? Where'd you get this from? Is this newly confirmed? When we did the Pippen for Cato trade I had conversation with Coon and aelliott, and others here, when we were trying to figure out where we came up with the $4.5m (?) exception that CD reported in the paper. We all agreed, including Coon, that the Pippen trade produced a $1.7m TE (or somewhere close to that) based solely on the 115% difference. The remainder came from the Francis trade. btw: Coon clearly states that the $100,000 applies to the exception. I don't know, maybe we were wrong about that all the Pippen gap adding to a TE, maybe all $4.5 of it came from the Francis trade. But at the time, none of us could add it up without the Pippen portion.
okay, cuz i was wondering about 2 posts up if the BYC value had to fit under the TE or the actual value. since it's the actual then obviously francis for nothing doesn't work. the CBA, at once the greatest and most confounding document i've ever been involved with. but then again, i'm not a lawyer so i don't really see lots of confounding documents. and who had August 10th in the "when will heypartner return" pool?
HP - First, good to see you weigh-in on this extremely heavy topic! Secondly, like the contract forensics we've all attempted to uncover in this thread, the true value of the Rice-Amaechi TE requires a leap of faith. IMO the Rice-Ameachi traded player exception is the difference between their contracts (since the Jazz were under the cap). If you place any faith in hoopshype (and I do in spite of them possibly missing Francis' YR 1 max), Rice's contract value for 2003-04 was $9,600,000 while Amaechi's was $2,610,000....voila....TE = $6,990,000.
You know, the main reason I came here is because 1) a new exception would be great and we keep seeing mention of this, 2) there's nowhere better to talk Rox capology than here, and 3) there is a Coon FAQ contributor (Don Jones), a Moderator at realgm, who is still saying their new exception is correct, as of August 10th. <a href="http://www.*******************/viewtopic.php?t=268680">Read this.</a> On face, his response in that thread is totally wrong, but I've learned to give those guys the benefit of the doubt, like maybe they are leaving something out or not explaining some new fact...that's happened before to me. So I gave a quick shot at making his exception work in a way that you guys might agree with. But thanks to you all, upon looking into everyone's comments and reading the CBA for like my 100th time, this attempt at mine to explain that new exception doesn't work. NIKEstrad is right, per the Coon comment I quoted, Orlando cannot aggregate multiple TPEs generated on different days/different trades. Old Man Rock is right, if you are trading multiple players, you don't get a TPE as a result of the 15% difference. However, the Pippen trade was just one player for many, so that can produce a TPE without the other team having cap space or a TPE, per Article VII, Section 6.h.1.ii. That looks right. Correct me if I'm wrong. <b>So, who is the original source of this new exception. realgm or someone else?</b> GATER, I couldn't remember the source of the $6.9 or $6.99, or whatever, Rice TE. But the Chronicle originally reported (and erroneously so, as you pointed out), <a href="http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/sports/bk/bkn/rox/2129525">that is was $6.5.</a> That is what I looked at yesterday recently to refresh myself. aelliott, been mainly in the ticket forum during the season, and lurking here on occassion. I think I emailed you a crazy trade scenario about a month ago... thanks for allowing me to interrupt y'all's discussion. carry on.
oh, one last thing, aelliott, as for "roundtripping" a player. Do you think it is legal to send a minimum player to another team under a TPE, then immediately trade him back under a minimum salary exception, such that it works simultaneously like a 3-way trade does? The second trade is a single player trade (so should work outside the 2-month rule), but just wondering if it can be back to the same team.
TE to acquire Howard and Gaines works only from Houston's POV. TE will not automatically be transfered to Orlando. From Orlando's POV, they are making a trade which results in moving downward in salary. They have to use assigned player exception to make the trade work. From Coon's desciption Any trade which results in the team ending up over the salary cap requires an exception. This is true even if the team is moving downward in salary. ... The assigned player exception is the primary means used by teams over the cap for completing trades. It allows teams to make trades that leave them over the cap, but it places several restrctions on those trades. Mainly, a team cannot use the assigned player exception to acquire in trade more than 115% plus $100,000 of the salaries they are trading. To generate TE from the trade, Howard and Gaines can only be sent out in one trade using two seperate APEs, resulting in two TEs. However, it do generate a TE for Orlando equal to the combined salaries of Howard and Gaines, since This is the trade I proposing that match RealGm's figure, its one trade: From Orlando's POV, TMac+Gaines+Howard+Lue for Mobley+Cato+Francis ($21.04987m x 1.15 + $0.1m = $24.3073505m > $23.698125m) From Houston's POV, the trade is reorganized into 3 parts, TE for Howard+Lue ($6.99m - $4.917m - $1.5m = $0.573m) Mobley+Cato for TMac+Gaines ($12.738125m x 1.15 + $0.1m = $14.74884375m > $14.63287m) (APE) Francis for nothing ($10.96m/2 x 1.15 + $0.1m > $0) (APE)
