I'll disagree with you here basso. Kerry played up his service as any politician would. i remember campaigns for Ford (i think?) that noted he was a member of the boy scouts -- yet no-one questioned his merrit badges. It's the anti-Kerry group who has a fetish with questioning the valour of his service. It's very dirty politics. Michael Moore would be ashamed to run some of that stuff. Crazy.
and yet it was MM who swiveled his hips and smiled obscenely while salivating over the prospect of Bush-Clark debates during the primaries, precisely because it would contrast their respective service in the military. i ask you once again: if kerry's service is so important, what does that say about his choice of running mate, a man who could end up as president? and what does it say about other potential nominees in the future? is service in wartime a prerequisite for the presidency now?
Clutch doesn't write everything that appears on the bulletin board (and lord knows he doesn't agree with it all), but he still hosts it. Surely you see the difference there.
and if clutch thought it crossed a line, he'd lock the thread. if moveon thought it was dishonest, why was it still present on their site as recently as a month ago, month's after they were called on it? DOUBLE STANDARD?
. If the ad were to say "hey thanks john -- you served honourably for a few months thirty years ago, but what the hell have you done since!" it would resonate a lot more with me and i'd find it much less offensive. It's the drive to belittle his service that grinds me. There's no need for that. It's dishonest, alienating, and insulting. Don't you agree?
Well I think the conservos are making a big mistake. Keeping the attention on the relative service records of the two candidates can only hurt Bush with most voters. It might turn out the loyal dittoheads as apparently this type of thing turns them on.
yes, i do, ultimately. however it doesn't exist in a vacuum. there's been a years' long drive to do the same to Bush, so it's hardly surprising some of the same tactics are used against kerry. furthermore, kerry's activities after he returned remain highly controversial with many veterans, the swiftvets are just the most vocal. lastly, as stated several time already, Kerry has attempted to use his service as a shield against all manner fo other criticism, thus opening himself up for these attacks. yes, taken by themselves, they're unfair, and it would be wonderful if we as a a country could put Vietnam and the '70s behind us (come on, red, white, and blue platform shoes with orange and black paid pants? what was i thinking?!?), but as long as kerry pretends that nothing he's done after 1982 matters as much as what he did before, that's not gonna happen.
interesting stat from the latest rasmussen reports daily tracking poll: http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Presidential_Tracking_Poll.htm "Nearly half of all voters (48%) say they have family or friends who are currently serving in Iraq or Afghanistan. These voters prefer President Bush by a 51% to 41% margin. Military veterans prefer Bush by a wider margin."
So, Kerry has a dead crewman that does not endorse him... just like Vince Foster DA-DA-DA-DUMMMM! By the way, where do a bunch of Swift Boat guys get the money to produce and run a week's worth of ads? I know that the lead guy is a lawyer, but ads are expensive. Hannity, Instapundit, even Basso... all are calling the ad "devastating." I'm glad to see Grover's group is still getting those talking points out and of course, has nothing to do with the Bush Campaign. A guy named Hoffman is one of the ringleaders as well... Here's what Brinkley wrote about him in Tour of Duty, pages 177-178... Kerry would never forget how ardently Captain Hoffman lauded the exploits of one “enterprising officer” from the Danang Swift division. The officer had surprised some thirty Vietnamese who were fishing in round, floating baskets just off the shore of a peninsula in an area that was, unfortunately for them, a free fire zone. Hoffman considered it ideal military thinking that the Swift skipper had shown the presence of mind to sneak his boat in between the baskets and the shore, cutting the fisherman off from escape and then opening fire on them. All the baskets were sunk, and so were the fishermen. “Fantastic,” Hoffman reportedly proclaimed upon hearing the news.
then its still an assumption that they supported it. Some people support free speech and will be less reluctant to censure things until enough people complain about it. Other's have a much shorter line with things that they don't agree with. What you are confusing is supporting a message and supporting free speech, which I speculate some conservatives assume are the same. Our country allows the KKK as well as other extreme groups to speak freely but doesn't support them. We will only shut them up if they go to far.
While I don't mind that such a prominent Republican is bashing the anti-Kerry ad, the above quote makes me wonder, Hunh? Bush's people in SC killed McCain's bid for the Republican nomination by push-polling, i.e., calling Repug voters and letting them know that McCain had sired a half-black child out of wedlock. Actually, seems he and his wife had adopted a Bangladeshi girl. But it worked. McCain's lead over Bush evaporated, and Bush went on, as we know, to the White House. So "I can't believe the President would pull such a cheap stunt" must actually be a public swipe, w/o directly mentioning That Which Has Gone Before, at Incurious George: "There you go again, George."
Comics Watch Kerry fights "Dracula" in Vietnam By Mark Rahner Seattle Times staff reporter Set aside the question of whether all politicians are bloodsuckers, and check out John Kerry in the latest issue of "Sword of Dracula" (Image, $2.95). The Democratic presidential candidate turns up for a sighting of the fanged one in an unusual place: Vietnam, 1968, where Kerry served in the U.S. Navy. Kerry doesn't drive a stake through Nixon's heart, and his appearance as a swift-boat skipper in the Mekong Delta is just a flashback within the modern-day "military horror" story — in which writer Jason Henderson reimagines Drac as the world's foremost terrorist. Combining Bram Stoker's source novel with the real Romanian prince, and a drop of Japanese animé influence, Henderson, 32, says from his Austin, Texas, crypt, "This is the guy, who in the 15th century was the greatest war criminal of all time. If he were alive today, he'd be a nightmare of a character." Issue 5 of the six-issue arc just hit the stands (check your neighborhood comic shop or www.swordofdracula.com). Vampire-hunter Ronnie Van Helsing has captured her nemesis, but springs him to face an even greater horror. The black-and-white interior pages started as a cost-cutting measure, Henderson says. But producers of the "Die Hard" series and the coming "Spy Hunter" movie have optioned it, and a "Sword" video game is in the works. Henderson says Kerry will be back, "because we're going to have to find out what happened in 1968." But why use him in the first place? "I didn't put Kerry in to push a leftist doctrine. I just thought people deserved to remember that this man, when he was a young man, actually walked away from a wealthy and comfortable life and went to a place where there were pieces of metal flying around that could tear you apart." Henderson hadn't planned to make George W. Bush into a character but says, "I do believe in equal time." If fans want to see the president during his Air National Guard stint, Henderson says he's game, and considers the possibilities: "... stuffing envelopes?" http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/artsentertainment/2001995756_comicswatch04.html
Should we listen to people who have said the same thing for 30 years or people who suddenly changed their minds? Aren't the swift boat vets wafflers?
apropos your sig, isn't that precisely what kerry and his supporters are demanding re his time in 'nam? that there be no criticism, and if there is that such criticism is "reprehensible," if not "unpatriotic?"
I guess it's true you canjudge a man by his enemies... _____________ Excerpts from Nixon White House tapes Conversations reveal Nixon's desire to discredit John Kerry in 1971 NBC News Updated: 5:57 p.m. ET March 15, 2004 April 23, 1971: Oval Office meeting with Haldeman, Kissinger President: Apparently, this fellow, uh, that they put in the front row, is that what you say, the front [unintelligible] the real stars? Kerry. Haldeman: Kerry. He is, he did a hell of a great job on the, uh -- President: He was extremely effective. Haldeman: [Unintelligible] he did a superb job on it at Foreign Relations Committee yesterday. A Kennedy-type guy - he looks like a Kennedy and he, and he talks exactly like a Kennedy. Kissinger : [Unintelligible]. President: Where did he serve? Haldeman: He was a Navy lieutenant, jg., on a gunboat. [edit] Haldeman: He was only over there for, I thinks it's four months or five months. President: Bob, the Navy didn’t have any casualties in Vietnam except in the air. Haldeman: Well, this guy got a Purple Heart with two clusters and the Navy Star. He's got a hell of a bundle of lettuce up here. [edit] Kissinger: Well, it, it's an outrage -- Haldeman: No, but he's said some good things. Kissinger: -- that eight hundred veterans -- President: Yeah. Kissinger: -- of whom I’m sure a significant percentage are phonies -- President: Yeah. Kissinger: -- get five minutes on national television every -- President: [Unintelligible]. Kissinger: -- night. Haldeman: Well, they've got about six paraplegics up there with the whole bunch and that's, God, everything ya read would make ya think all those guys out there had no legs. [edit] Haldeman: I think you’ll find Kerry running for political office. I think you’re exactly right, he’s building himself – Nixon: Is he from Massachusetts? Haldeman: I don’t know. April 28, 1971: EOB phone conversation with Charles Colson Colson: This fellow Kerry that they had on last week -- President: Yeah. Colson: -- hell, he turns out to be, uh, really quite a phony. You know, we --. President: Yeah, I know. Colson: That story we're getting out, that, uh, -- President: Are ya? Colson: --[Newspaper columnist Jerald] TerHorst is writing that for -- President: Good. Colson: -- North American Newspaper Alliance. President: Well, he is sort of a phony, isn't he? Colson: Well, he stayed, when he was here -- President: Stayed out in Georgetown, yeah. Colson: -- he stayed in Georgetown with, uh, one of the old-line Washington socialites, Elsie Leiter*, and, uh, was out at the best restaurants every night and, uh -- President: Sure. Colson: -- you know, he's just, the complete opportunist. President: A racket, sure. Colson: He was in Vietnam a total of four months. Uh, he's, he's politically ambitious and just, uh, looking for an issue. President: Yeah. Colson: He came back a hawk and became a dove when he saw the political opportunities. President: Sure, well, anyway, keep the faith. Colson: We’ll keep hitting him, Mr. President. Presdent: Bye. Colson: Yes, sir. *Note: Kerry says that while he visited the home of TK, he spent every night on the Mall with the other veterans June 2, 1971: Oval Office meeting with Bob Haldeman Haldeman: We got these guys now forming this Veterans for a – Peace with Justice, or uh – the veterans – Nixon: They came in to see me? Are they here? Haldeman: No we don’t want them to be able to see you yet. We don’t want to – Nixon: Who are they? Haldeman: Well, it’s this guy, uh, he’s got a beard, one of ‘em, and there’s this Navy officer [John O'Neill], just got out yesterday – President: Yeah. Haldeman: -- crew cut, real sharp looking guy who is more articulate than Kerry. He’s not as eloquent; he isn’t the ham that Kerry is. But he’s more believable. [edit] Haldeman: Colson put this together. [edit] Haldeman: This guy now [O’Neill], is gonna, he’s gonna move on Kerry. He’s gonna move around the country. June 16, 1971: Oval Office meeting with John O’Neill Nixon: I really feel that what you’re doing, you’ll take brickbats, you go on some of these TV shows like the Cavett thing, you’re gonna get banged, but – you’ll get terribly discouraged and say the whole country’s – and so forth. But I think ya gotta remember, uh, you have to remember, that uh, that uh, now {unintelligible] in Vietnam should be enough, that now you would have the [unint] to get back and reassure people that those few that come back – like Kerry and the rest – don’t speak for all. [edit] Nixon: That’s great. Give it to him, give it to him. And you can do it, because you have a pleasant manner, too, because you’ve got – and I think it’s a great service to the country. [edit] Nixon: You fellows have been out there. You’ve got to know, seeing the barbarians that we’re up against, you’ve got to know what we’re doing in that horrible swamp that North Vietnam is. 33:40 You’ve got to know from all our faults of what we have in this country that, that what we’re doing is right. You’ve got to know too, people are critics. Critics of the war, critics of [unint], run America down. Those that are, uh – well in every respect, either get out of Vietnam, get out of [unint], get out of the world, etcetera etcetera. You’ve gotta know that you’re on the winning s—that, that you’re on the right side. © 2004 MSNBC Interactive URL: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4534613/
oh great, now Hamster-gate? -- GOP Questions Kerry's Hamster Heroism Rodent story 'doesn't add up,' mass e-mail claims By Andy Borowitz Newsweek Aug. 3 - A mass e-mail from the Republican National Committee is questioning whether or not Democratic nominee John Kerry actually saved his daughter Alexandra's pet hamster, Licorice, from drowning during a family boating trip as she has claimed he did. The e-mail, with a subject line reading "Kerry Hamster Story --We Smell a Rat," was sent to more than 2,000 news outlets just hours after Alexandra Kerry charmed the Democratic national convention with her tale of the Senator's hamster heroism. In the e-mail message, the GOP quotes an unnamed witness who claims that not only did Kerry not save the rodent's life, but he may have actually been responsible for its premature demise. According to the witness, Licorice was "breathing normally" when Kerry pounced on the hamster and administered "unnecessarily forceful CPR" in an over-the-top bid to appear heroic, breaking several of the hamster's ribs and puncturing its left lung. Speaking at a campaign stop in Flint, Michigan, Kerry defended his daughter's version of events and was joined onstage by several veterans of the boating trip during which Licorice fell overboard, a group Mr. Kerry called his "band of brothers." But perhaps the most vehement defense came from wife Teresa Heinz Kerry, who told the gathering, "The Licorice story is true, and if you don't believe it, you can shove a live hamster in a secure, undisclosed location." Later in the rally, Sen. John Edwards retracted his statement about there being two Americas, saying that he had gotten that information from Mapquest. Andy Borowitz is the author of The Borowitz Report, and the winner of the National Press Club's humor award. © 2004 Newsweek, Inc.
This answers were some of the money is coming from... and O'Neill's book comes out soon... published by Regnery... ________________ Vietnam Veterans Buy Ads to Attack Kerry By JODI WILGOREN A group of Vietnam veterans has bought television time in three swing states for an advertisement that attacks Senator John Kerry, accusing him of lying about his war record, including the circumstances surrounding his medals, and betraying his comrades by later opposing the war. "When the chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry," one of the veterans, Larry Thurlow, says in the 60-second advertisement, scheduled to begin running today in scattered markets in Ohio, West Virginia and Wisconsin. Robert G. Elder, like Mr. Kerry a Navy lieutenant who commanded a Swift boat, declares, "John Kerry is no war hero," and Robert Hildreth, who held a similar post, intones, "John Kerry cannot be trusted." The Kerry campaign immediately denounced the group, noting that none of the men had actually served on the Swift boats that Mr. Kerry commanded, like Gene Thorson, who told reporters, "These assertions are garbage; these people weren't there with John Kerry." The advertisement, which layers snippets from recent interviews with a dozen veterans over familiar black-and-white photographs of Mr. Kerry and his men in uniform, is the latest tactic of Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, a 200-member group that held a news conference in Washington this spring to make similar accusations. It is one of several independent groups, known as 527's for the provision in the tax code that enables their operation, to run attack advertisements this season. Tax documents show that from April to June, the group collected $158,750 from 11 people, $100,000 of it from Bob J. Perry, a Houston developer who is a major contributor to Republican campaigns. Steve Schmidt, a spokesman for the Bush campaign, said he had not seen the advertisement and tried to distance the president from it. "The Bush-Cheney campaign has never and will never question John Kerry's service during Vietnam," Mr. Schmidt said. "The election will not be about the past, it will be about the future." Mr. Kerry's aides circulated an 18-page packet discrediting the veterans group and linking its backers to Republicans, noting that a public-relations consultant the group paid $27,000 this spring, Merrie Spaeth, was also involved in a advertising campaign attacking Senator John McCain during his tough race against Mr. Bush in the 2000 primary in South Carolina. The Kerry campaign also convened a conference call in which two of Mr. Kerry's crewmates, and a man he pulled from the Mekong River, defended his service. "The fact is, John Kerry risked his life to save the lives of others,'' said Chad Clanton, a spokesman for the Kerry campaign. Adm. Roy F. Hoffman, who is retired and who says in the advertisement, "John Kerry has not been honest," acknowledged that the men in the advertisement did not serve on Mr. Kerry's boat, but he said their time in parallel boats on coordinated missions, or as Mr. Kerry's superiors, made them valid commentators on his record. The group provided station managers with a 13-page memorandum, backed up by more than 60 pages of sworn statements, book excerpts and military records. "We were on the same operations, we were operating within 25-50 yards of him all the time, and for them to suggest we don't know John Kerry is pure old bull," Mr. Hoffman said. "He has made this the centerpiece of this campaign, and we just don't think he's qualified to be the commander in chief of the armed forces. We have every right to be heard." Produced by Stevens, Reed, Curcio & Potham, a Republican firm based in Alexandria, Va., the advertisement tees off with Mr. Kerry's running mate, Senator John Edwards of North Carolina, saying that the best way to understand Mr. Kerry is to "spend three minutes with the men who served with him." Then the anti-Kerry veterans speak one by one: "John Kerry lied to get his Bronze Star," says one, Van O'Dell. "I know. I was there. I saw what happened." Another, Jack Chenoweth, says, "His account of what happened and what actually happened are the difference between night and day." Adrian L. Lonsdale, one of Mr. Kerry's superiors in Vietnam, says Mr. Kerry "lacks the capacity to lead," Shelton White, a Swift boat commander, says he "betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam," and Joseph L. Ponder adds, "He dishonored his country, he most certainly did." A doctor, Louis Letson, repeats accusations he made in newspaper interviews this spring that Mr. Kerry did not deserve his first Purple Heart because his wounds resulted from a ricochet off friendly fire, saying in the advertisement, "I know John Kerry is lying about his first Purple Heart because I treated him for that injury." The Kerry campaign pointed out yesterday, as it had previously, that another doctor, J. C. Carreon, signed Mr. Kerry's treatment record. Mr. Hoffman said the group was spending $500,000 to run the advertisement but would not say how long it would be on the air; a Kerry aide said the buy was far smaller, $156,000 in seven smallish markets like Green Bay, Wis., and Toledo, Ohio, suggesting it was a "vanity buy'' intended to attract news coverage. http://www.nytimes.com/2004/08/05/politics/campaign/05veterans.html?pagewanted=print&position=
