can we stop now? i'm literally cringing everytime i open the bbs and see another post was made in this thread.
Well Max, if there are people out there who believe the things Kate seems to be saying she believes in then you must admit that this is an extremely serious issue. Thanks for your support Rashmon. And deprogramming reference may well be right on the mark. I hate to abandon Kate just yet, though, given that she is now reading the Bible. It could be a gateway to the truth for her. As always, however, one needs to be careful about understanding the context when reading the Bible. The first vital bit of context that the reader needs to know about Romans 9, Romans 9-11 in fact, is that they are written about the Jews. Romans 9 1I speak the truth in Christ--I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit-- 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race, 4the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, the temple worship and the promises. 5Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised![1] Amen. Headings the NIV Bible uses for sections in these chapters are: God’s Sovereign Choice Israel’s Unbelief The Remnant of Israel Ingrafted Branches Although these chapters are specifically about the Jews they are relevant to all because they go to complete the OT. The Jews are the Chosen People aren’t they? So what is this new stuff Jesus and Paul have been saying about Jews not being chosen and gentiles being offered the gift of salvation? Has God broken his promise? Romans 9 answers this question about the Jews and their history. 6It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel… But many Jews mistakenly believed that they were the chosen, the “elect,” predestined, and that they didn’t have to do anything and their place in heaven was assured. Israel's Unbelief 30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[13] Was this unjust? Did God owe special favours to the Jews as many of them believed? Note that the term “mercy” has a particular meaning in this context. http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T4234 To this Paul says: 14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Remember that this is written directly to the Jews. Also remember that previously in Romans God has clearly told us that all who believe will be justified, and note that these passages are not talking about justification, they are taking about mercy (see link above). Note also that hardening is not the same as a barring from justification. http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T2548 Hardening, therefore, can be part of the hand we’re all dealt or we can foolishly do it to ourselves out of our own free will. This is one of the reasons why we can never judge anyone. I’m sure all Christians have been awakened to a hardness in their own lives at some point or another. This is typically an extremely humbling experience. To sum up, the point here is that in spite of what many of the Jews believed their standing with God was based on what they thought was promised to them in the OT, God is not beholden to the Jews. Note also that this passage is to the Jews and it speaks against their mistaken belief that they were predestined. This belief, in fact, caused a pride and hard heartedness that blocked them from God. So Kate, I suggest you reread this chapter and the links on mercy and hard heartedness and have another stab at what you think those passages were saying to the Jews. After you’ve done that then you can consider what this chapter says to the rest of us.
i think if Christians are gonna disagree so harshly on doctrine and ultimately call each other out..."maybe you're really not a Christian" kinda stuff... they ought to do it among themselves...in private.
hello people. skimmed through this thread a while ago and just now skimmed through it again. typically i'm extremely turned off by intellectual challenges (which is what this thread has kiiiind of become). don't let this become a battle of pride. hopefully the goal is to know the truth. just for the record i am a non-denominational Christian. but remember, Christ's people are one body. one family. anything that causes this unity to unravel is NOT worth our time. let the focus be what Christ has done for us. all else is petty. i hope to discuss more with everyone from now on.
Lying injured, stuck on my back, I was wondering if god already "knows" what you are going to do in the future, does he know what HE is going to do in the future? Can god change his own mind? Does it have free will? Is God himself predestined?
I thiiink... God knows what you are going to do in the future. I also think God knows what HE is gong to do in the future. BUT. this does not mean he CHOSE what you are going to do. From the beginning of time, God had His own plan for how the world should be. But the moment sin entered the world (adam and eve), His plan was ruined. I don't think the world today is what God originally intended. One of the aspects of being all-loving is giving us a choice - a choice to choose Him, or choose our own way. He does not force us to choose Him, and He never will. I hope you guys remember that. It's by His grace that despite our choice to choose our own way, we can still have a relationship with Him through faith. Grace. I know you people hear that word a lot. I hope this grace becomes real to yall. Maybe we should discuss this more.
If he was omniscient and omnipotent then how was his plan ruined? wouldn't he have known in advance that man would "discover" sin? was he really surprised or was he just being a drama queen about the apple? If the world is not how he intended it then why didn't he change it? that suggests he's not as all-powerful after all.
Well, like i said, God DID know man was going to sin. I don't think He was surprised at all. However, I'm sure He was deeply saddened. Again, He gives us a choice - choose Him or choose sin. We choose sin. He's not going to change that. Could He? I guess. But He's not going to. We choose the path. He did not make us robots. Why create man then, if he KNEW we were going to choose the wrong path? I think God created man for a reason - and that was to have someone to share His love with. What good is love if it is not shared? Despite sin, we can STILL have His love. Again by His grace.
How does god become sad, happy etc? Does god really have emotions? Does god have desires? Does god really have any sort of ego?
Most definitely He has emotions. And I think He changes emotions just like you and me. And desires? Definitely. First and foremost - have a relationship with His people. His creation. God is not just a God who 'created all things' and 'answers prayers.' And ego? Hm. I'm sure He does, in a sense that He KNOWS He is God. Not like a nanny-nanny-boo-boo I'm-freakin-God ego. God said we were "made in His image." He has feelings/emotions just like you and me. And what a great thing - we can have a relationship with this God. I'm off to church.
I just find this nutty. How does a omniscient and omnipotent god have emotions and desire? Feelings? Does god have a nervous system? If God has emotions, sadness, happiness, anger, etc;, then god is limited. And if god changes emotions then how is he eternal? I think personifying that which transcends rational thought is a method humans use to come to terms with that which can not be rationally understood. I think we created god in our image, not the other way around.
I see what you're saying, but I don't think they're going to say anything everyone else hasn't heard.
