Shareef wants out...... should the Rocks take a look.....

On paper that looks good. But reality is contract/team philosophy/team chemistry/depth will be affected if we acquired him.

For a guy who scores 20pts/game, he will not fit in our system. We already have 2 primary scorers and the league's best scorer last year. and for 14million/year asking him to be defensive force is too expensive and we would also loose dept on the bench for Mo/Juwan.

I just see a zero percent chance that we are going to get or even try to get this guy.

 

Who says I hate SAR? I actually use to be a big SAR fan, I like his game. However, I don't think he would be a good fit for our team, especially with what we would have to give up.

SAR is a good player, no one can argue that. But some are saying that he is an elite player, a top tier PF, I don't agree with this. I don't only look at the 20 & 8 for his career, I look at the wins, because at the end, thats all that matters.

 

I also agree that he is not a top defender, but MoT and Howard are?

My biggest selling point on acquiring SAR is the flexibility he gives us after this year. Mo and Juwan aren't going to shut anyone down this year either, but both will still be under large contracts after this year...

Between Mo ($8M) Juwan ($6M) and Spoon ($5M), we have almost $20M tied up in the PF spot without a clear-cut difference-maker to show for it...

I'm not saying Reef is that kind of difference maker, but if he turns out not to be, we can cut him loose after one year and go from there...

If we maintain the status quo, we will be in the exact same position next year, so why not move forward now?

 

So... you like Celine Dion because she is popular, you thing that David Hassellhof should be appreciated because he is a team player and brought us babes in bikinis, and now you are admitting to being a member of the Oprah Book Club.

How do you even have time to watch basketball much less be able to study SAR's game so in depth that you can label him overrated.

SAR is closer to being the 5th Beattle than he is to being overrated.

 

SAR is more like LaToya Jackson.

He's overrated because he was expected to be a primary player, he was a very high draft pick. he is paid like a primary player.
he is paid to help his team win and doesnt.

He's not the impact player people thought he would be. There are lots of them, Joe Smith, Olawakandi.. Overrated players.

No playoffs in 8 years??? Come on! Even Vince Carter made it, and I think that dude is overrated too.

What if he plays 12 years and never has a winning season? Is he a good player? or just a guy with decent stats

 

What about Barry Sanders? Spent his entire career on very mediocre Lions teams. Does that make his HoF career less spectacular, b/c it was based on stats and not winning?

What about Barry Bonds? Until the Giants lost in the Series two years ago, he had a postseason career average of less than .200...does that mean that the first 12 years of his career were mediocre because he didn't win? This is (possibly) the greatest player to ever walk the earth, but b/c he didn't win anything his first 7 years, his production is irrelevant? Does that devalue him as a player?

There is a laundry list of fabulous players in every sport who just weren't fortunate enough to win anything significant b/c they had the misfortune of playing on bad teams.

Let me ask you this, tinman...by your definition, would you have considered Hakeem a loser b/c he didn't win anything until his 10th year? Would you have traded him after year 7 (1991) b/c he had failed to become a 'winnner'?

And don't bring up the '86 Finals b/c he had the good fortune of joining a team with Ralph Sampson...put Shareef on a team with Yao, and we are talking about a caliber of teammate that Shareef has never had the luxury to enjoy. I have no doubt that Reef could become an excellent 3rd star on a championship contender, much the same way Rasheed did last year.

 

First of all,

In my previous post I mention winning as winning NBA seasons.
Winning = above .500

Barry Sanders had seasons above .500 , they made the playoffs you know.

I say Potato you say Potatoe. Next time I'll put the super large font so you clearly understand and not miss my post.

FACT: Shareef has been LOSING team for 8 straight years

My argument ONCE AGAIN is that if he's a GREAT PLAYER he would have helped have at least a .500 record.

Barry Sanders went to the playoffs. He's pretty the Jordan of that team. Same with Ricky Williams (pre-dope days)

Shareef WILL NOT be a Rocket. So why are talking about this?
So thanks for thought provoking situations though.

 

Milos,

see SCOTTIE PIPPEN. Excellent 3rd star alright.
Pippen complaining about his teammates not being used correctly.
see SHAREEF with Portland.

PS Rasheed is WAY better than Shareef.

 

Tin,
You are click crack. I keep trying to withdraw myself from this conversation yet I get a wiff of you and I am back at it.

SAR is so, so much better than Joe Smith and Olawakandi. How can you even compare them? And in regards to playoffs... we all know of Bagwell's and Biggio's playoff failures. But are they not great players?! They are both going to make the Hall of Fame. You are judging SAR based on his popularity, the record of TEAMS that he has played on, and the one time in his career where he has made negative remarks... and if you actually read the article... how can you blame him?

Regardless of where he ranks among today's PF... and his career stats (which are an indication of skill)... show that he is a top 5 PF... if you put him on the ROX in a rotation with Yao, Howard and JJ... that would match anything that the Pistons could throw at you.

 

OK, what about the years Vlad Guerrero spent toiling away in Montreal...they were never .500? What about Javier Vasquez...the Yankees sure seemed to jump all over that loser? In Guerrero's case, he had the misfortune of wasting his immense talent on one of the poorest franchises in sports the first 6-7 years of his life...how then do you explain the unanimous consensus that he was the #1 prize on the market last winter, even better than a former MVP in his prime (Tejada)?

I mean, c'mon tinman, please explain to me how someone who has NEVER finished above .500 could become the most coveted Free Agent on the market?

Furthermore, why would a team like Anaheim, just one year removed from winning a World Series, want to add a piece of **** like Guerrero, and for $80M...that must be one of the worst signings in the history of pro sports, by your definition, right?

Or what about Beltran in KC before last year...did his production on terrible teams make him a less-valuable 27-year-old switch-hitting CF with speed and power? I do believe that none-other-than the almighty Yankees, the paragons of winning in pro sports, are his next likely destination...why would they, of all teams, want a complete scrub like Beltran, who has managed just a single season above .500 while consistently playing on one of the worst teams in the big leagues?

Is Todd Helton a scrub b/c he can't win in Colorado? Larry Walker too...he must be horrible b/c he went for Montreal to Colorado, which makes him a double loser, right?

And those are just the superstars who play for perrenial losers in baseball...

Elton Brand must be one too, right...I mean, this guy went from the post-Jordan Bulls to the Clippers...that must make him the worst all-time loser (never mind he won a championship at Duke), b/c you have CLEARLY defined winning as .500 or better, right? So, by that definition, EBrand must be terrible, right?

I think it is folly to measure an individual's worth as defined by the success of his team. There are literally thousands of examples I can give you of greatness being wasted on terrible teams who did not play .500. The fact that SAR has had the unfortunate luck to play for two of these (the pre-West Grizz and woeful Atlanta Hawks) is not a reflection on his ability to perform on a good team.

The "seven years straight w/o a .500 record = loser" criteria that you have chosen is a very poor method of defining a quality player...if it were the best way, all players would ever need to bring to arbitration hearings is their teams won-lost record...all players on losing teams would stay their forever b/c winnning teams could never use a talented 'loser' like that...and everyone on all winning teams would always make more $$$ than their counterparts on the losing teams, because, after all, players are defined by the records of their teams...right tinman?

Please, tinman, please explain to me how Vlad Guerrero became one of the top 5 players in baseball without ever having a winning record...

I'm waiting...

 

I guess it must also be A-Rod's fault that the Rangers were in last place his entire stay there too, right? 4 years straight in last place...all-time greatest loser...

Who would ever want to give that chump $25M a year to play third base...oh wait...

 

You really aren't going to compare basketball and baseball are you? They have little to do with each other. One person can't carry a baseball team, no matter how good they are.

 

There are some people here that don't know anything about basketball past the game stats in the Houston Chronicle. Hint: there is more to basketball that game stats. Read some books. Pay close attention to different teams. Watch the Mavs this year. They have Dirk, Finley, Stack and maybe Walker. Last year the Mavs took a big nose dive. Why? They had Walker, Jamison, Dirk, Finley and Nash. The key word is chemistry. Let's say it together, che - mis - try. Dallas has all of those scorers and nice numbers, but they didn't give Dallas the results. Look at Portland. With all of the scorers and abundance of forwards, they missed the playoffs. In Previous years, they were in and out. Adding one player can really help construct a championship team (Detroit) On the other hand, adding one player can kill a team. Take NVE in Dallas. He really contributed in the playoffs, but Cuban decide to trade him to the Warriors for Jamison. Was Dallas a better team after that deal? SAR makes 14.6 this year! Nobody has challenge me on this statement. If SAR is a bust, you all will be calling for CD's head on a platter with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

 

Elton Brand is way better than SAR. Also He hasnt been in the league for 8 years. The Clippers are at least competative. And you dont see Elton Brand crying like SAR about Zach Randolf. The reason for this is that he IS the BEST POWERFORWARD on the team unlike SAR who IS NOT THE BEST PF on his team.

also,
I HATE BASEBALL!

I'm not going to analyse a sport where there is no salary cap and that the Yankees can get every good player if they wanted to.

Also you dont see NBA Teams like the Expos who can't even pay Derrick Fisher's contract. There are no FARM systems. Just PHAT FARM.

 

AMEN SLICK! AMEN!

I mean when you were in the Slammer, Robert Horry wrote you a letter:

http://www.bet.com/articles/0,,c3gb3475-4143,00.html

Will Smith Supports Slick Rick
By BET.com Staff


June 24, 2002





Mr. David Wing

Officer in Charge

Immigration & Naturalization Services

515 11th Street, West

Bradenton, FL 34205


Dear Mr, Wing


I have known Rick for over 15 years. His talent as a rapper has earned him the respect of Many fans and he is an icon of hip-hop history. Most recently, we recorded a song in1999 entitled "So Fresh" together for my album Willennium which required we spend many days together. We have performed together on several occasions, and I invited him to perform at my birthday party a couple years ago where he once again displayed his exceptional talent and skill as a master of his craft. Rick has visited my home, where he and his wife have spent time with me and my family. Over the years, I have come to know Rick not just as an artist but as a friend. He has always been professional, reliable and trustworthy.


While I am aware of his past problems, I've also had the pleasure to watch him develop into a good person. He is a hard working man who is also a devoted family man. His many ties to this country and his family in particular, assure that he will not flee.


I respectfully ask that he be allowed to stay in this country and released to his family as soon as possible so that he may continue contributing to making this country a better place.


Thank you for taking the time to read my thoughts. Please feel free to contact me should you have any question or need any information.


Sincerely,


Will Smith

 

Originally posted by Slick Rick
"There are some people here that don't know anything about basketball past the game stats in the Houston Chronicle. Hint: there is more to basketball that game stats. Read some books. Pay close attention to different teams."

Slick Rick,

As evidenced by the fact I found this board a full two years before you, I obviously know a little more about basketball, and specifically, about the Rockets than you...otherwise, how could I have known about the best sight in the world to discuss this team 24 months before you?

And I definitely understand that the game is about more than stats...

"If SAR is a bust, you all will be calling for CD's head on a platter with some fava beans and a nice chianti." - Slick Rick

No...if he is a bust, I congratulate CD for letting him walk and using his salary slot to find a replacement...that is the beauty of getting him.

"Elton Brand is way better than SAR."
-tinman

Based on what?

Numbers?

EBrand
Career
19.4 PPG
10.7 RPG
2.2 BPG
2.7 APG
.493 FG%

SAR
Career
20.1 PPG
8.2 RPG
.86 BPG
2.8 APG
.466 FG%

Brand is better in rebounding, blocked shots...
Shareef is better in scoring, assists...

Overall pretty equal...so maybe you meant he makes his team better than Shareef...

But then, since neither has ever been to the playoffs, I guess that is really a moot point.

And as far as Randolph, the guy averaged 20 and 10 last year...if he was on the Clips, Brand might be backing him up as well...Randolph forced out Sheed and SAR as Portland's starting PF last year, so that is no slight on SAR without also being a slight to Rasheed.

In any case, I believe Brand is superior to SAR, but I do not hold it against either that their respective teams suck...they have both been unlucky. I am intelligent enough to realize individual performance and talent can be useless without good teammates, coaching, etc.

But you both seem to be missing the real point of this entire debate, so I will spell it out for you both...

I WOULD RATHER HAVE SAR AT $15M FOR ONE SEASON THAN MO TAYLOR AND SPOON FOR A COMBINED TOTAL OF ALMOST $14M FOR AT LEAST TWO YEARS AND BEYOND!

Or, simply, SAR > MoT + Spoon...PERIOD!

 

And tinman...

I'm still waiting for you to explain how VGuerrero can be a top 5 player when he has never finished above .500?

 

why are you comparing baseball to basketball? It makes Absolutely no sense.

 

JPM,

I was using him as an example of why it makes absolutely no sense, in any sport, to define a player's value based solely upon the success of the team.

So far, tinman's main reasons for not wanting SAR on this team are:

A. He has never been on a winning (above .500) team
B. He costs too much
C. He's not a good fit for this team (poor D, scorer's mentality, selfish)

To the latter two, I respond:

B. $15M is a lot, but with all the $$$ we have tied up in the PF slot anyway, I'd take almost anyone if they were in the final year of the contract.

C. His problems are very real, but they are the same strengths and weaknesses that Mo and Juwan have combined, so we lose nothing by adding SAR in their place.

And as for the winning part, well, I think I've made my point clear.

I agree that baseball is far less of an individual sport, but as a whole, I think it is stupid to make a statement that b/c Reef has never been on a winning team he cannot EVER become an integral part of a winning team.

Tinman disagrees with this, and I am using Guerrero as indisputable evidence that in any team sport, individual excellence, no matter how great, guarantees nothing without support around it.

I think Elton Brand is a perfect example of this...he has never been on a 'winning' team, but does that mean he wouldn't have a place on the Rockets as the starting PF?

Of course not...and I don't see why the same standards would not also apply so SAR.

Do you?