I just ask that you don't repeat yourself ad nauseam like The Cat You know that's not my intent. Some Rockets, like Cato, deserve to be bashed. No work ethic, injury prone-- you know the list. But it irks me when hard working players who have/will contribute a lot to the success of this team are bashed for no reason. You guys know I like Cuttino, Mo, and Collier, and I don't want to repeat the same takes. But, as a fan, whenever they get bashed I have to respond. ZRB leaves me no choice. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
ZRB, A great post. Hakeem is greedy, is the thing I hear most, and I think that reason has the least amount of credibility. Looking at Hakeem turn down, huge money from Nike, I can never say this guy is greedy. I will admit, I think he's handling this whole thing poorly though. I hope that in the end Hakeem is still a Rocket, and he performs like he did the last part of 2000-2001. I also agree that the Rockets should offer him more than 4.1 mil. ------------------
Yes The Cat, and I like to defend Rudy! and the offensive system! I can't stop myself from responding....help me, I'm addicted My Slogan is: ...patience! Francis is learning a new position right now......and in the mean time....give the damn ball to Mobley, if you want to win!!! Oh, that felt gooooood. Can you tell I'm watching Rockets games on video right now while heyschweetie is out of town?
Whoooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh Jason- I mean- Cat, I didn't mean to upset you so much! I don't like Collier because of his rebounding and defense. I saw that he had a decent jumper, but was often out-rebounded by third string small forwards. He just didn't impress me in any way, and he does not have the savvy and experience of Sam Perkins to make up for his lack of athleticism (sorry, that is important) and defensive presence. I guess we just disagree on this. I'm sorry Jaso- uhh- Cat. Heypartner, I am sorry, but I really like writing game recaps. I'm even thinking of making a career change in order to write more of them! I will cut down on the negative repeat threads when the season starts, but if I feel like I can add something via a recap, I will. Besides, didn't you create that "sunshine asses sound off" thread? Now that was useless. I may start a lot of topics in this forum during the season, but not many in the offseason. One more thing on Collier though- It's bad enough that he was slow and weak defensively before, but now he's injury prone. Not a good mix. His jumper better be 90 percent when open, or he will be completely useless next year. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks! [This message has been edited by ZRB (edited July 22, 2001).]
This is classic ZRB. One injury and the guy is injury prone? Almost all stars have had a significant injury at some point. Michael Jordan missed almost his entire 2nd season. Was he injury prone? ZRB, Go back and look at the numbers I posted. You cannot tell me he is a horrible defender, when he teams with Hakeem to limit Shaq to 14 points and 5 rebounds a game. If he was as bad as you said, Shaq would've absolutely torn him to shreds. The bit about rebounding further displays the lack of understanding you have about the transition from college to the NBA. You said a few weeks ago that if Griffin didn't have X numbers, you would consider him a bust. That's ridiculous. If you even watch college basketball, you know that the ACC is one of or the toughest conferences in the country, and he led the ACC in rebounding his senior year. He has the technique to rebound well. However, rebounding on the NBA level is different. You need a little more than just height to be a good rebounder. The players are quicker, leap higher, and adjustments have to be made in your style. In the case of most players, they don't happen overnight. Give the guy more than a month of basketball. And, weren't you a big supporter of the Sixers in the playoffs? I thought that, of all things, would show you the value of fundamentals over athletism. The Sixers had one athletic freak and star-- Allen Iverson. The majority of that team was average or below average athletically, but they knew the fundamentals of making their shots, passing, setting picks, and playing solid defense. ------------------ Draftsource.net-- the premier source for draft info. Profiles, rankings, mock drafts, and more! The Mo Taylor Fan Site
Okay Cat, my point is that the Rockets can not go into the season with a Cato-Collier combo. Even if I am wrong about everything else, Collier is still a rookie. (he didn't play enough for me to consider him a sophomore) I think the Rockets could do better than Collier. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks!
Shifting gears, someone please refresh my memory re. the salary cuts or deferrals by Charles Barkley (certainly not a lifelong Rocket)in an effort to put together a championship team. Dream says his priority is keeping the team intact...well, he is the one who can best make that happen. I love the guy, I just can't put up with his hypocrisy. There's nothing wrong with trying to get everything you can, but don't cloak it in self serving, and all-too-transparent BS.
1 million the Pippen year, 9 million the next. ------------------ Protrolls.com! Keep the ???? alive! The ZRBucks!
Det: I think the basic disagreement is that the Rockets have the players now to contend for a title. I simply do not believe we are close to that. I do believe we have the talent to make the playoffs and maybe, depending on the team we face, win a series. I do not believe we are ready for a deep run in the playoffs. It takes time for players to learn about the pressure of the second season and develop their game when they are already exhausted from the rigors of an 82 game season. Hakeem being here does not, IMO, put us any closer to a title. It does help us during the season if he's healthy, but it will not get us closer to winnin it all. Winning in the NBA is as much a game of attrition as anything. The team that makes it to the finish line the healthiest and with the best chemistry usually goes deepest. There is also the element of the team with the best player usually wins. Look over the past 10 seasons - Kobe, Shaq, Duncan, Jordan, Olajuwon, etc, etc. It almost never fails that the team with the MVP (or the guy that should've been the MVP) is in the finals or wins it all. It is RARE to find a team at the top who doesn't have that single dominant player. Steve Francis is an emerging talent but he is not ready to be the best in the league. Boy, do I hope I'm wrong, but I just don't think he's ready for that leap. IMO, there are just too many elements the Rockets lack for them to be considered title contenders this season. ------------------ How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters
The Rockets aren't going to have $16 million, probably more like $13 million. Even so, it isn't just about using up the cap space you have. Olajuwon = $4.5 Taylor = $5.5 Anderson = $4 Norris = $3 Bullard = $1 That puts them around $2 million over the cap. That keeps them well within the cap raise next year and leaves them open to make other deals. Cap space IS value especially when you are a team still building towards winning a title. It's not the money that would hurt us in that. It is the number of years. If Dream wanted more than 2 years, that would be the problem. Not the amount of the deal. I understand this sentiment and I agree to a degree. The fact is that this is still a team game and you do what you think will help your team win. If you remember that Clippers game before Hakeem went on his tear at the end of the year, he looked AWFUL. He looked REALLY REALLY old. He is inconsistent and cannot stustain 82 games at any level of minutes. Frankly, it was much more likely that his career would end in injury last year than on the floor. That is still the case. Now, THIS I don't understand. The Rockets are not near contending for a title. Maybe for the playoffs, but not a championship. They have a lot of holes to fill and are not close to being good enough to beat the Lakers as is. They also contain one of the YOUNGEST teams in the league. Players don't start becoming the best players in the league until they've been playing 5 years or so. Most don't start being stars until they are in their late 20's to around 30. This team is not immune to that. Francis is not going to overtake Iverson, Shaq or Bryant as one of the best players in the league. He could be top 15 and probably top 3 in point guards, but he still has to deal with his turnover problems and continue to improve his game. When he is 28, if he hasn't gotten to the point you are suggesting, THEN we can be concerned. As it is, he's really still a kid. This doesn't really constitute a deep bench. That is a decent bench but there are still quite a few question marks there and tons of inexperience. For the playoffs, definitely. For the championship, not yet. You are discounting other teams far too quickly and wearing your Rockets' rose colored glasses. I admire the fan in you but you aren't being realistic. You haven't considered possible injuries, players struggling, improvements by other teams or any other number of potential problems. You can't just pencil people in for their usual numbers. That's why they play the games. Olajuwon getting minutes means diminished minutes for younger players. Because Hakeem will be gone by the time this team truly can contend for a title, those are wasted minutes. It's like practice. You don't practice with players who won't be there to help you later. You practice with guys who will be there so everyone gets used to one another. I would like to see Hakeem back because he can help the team short term, but he doesn't help the development of the team in the long term. He does effect the amount of time the younger players have on the floor. That is just a reality. Yes they will, but... Ticket sales are not based on aging superstars. Listen to the talk shows in Houston and you'll hear that the vast majority of people have soured on Hakeem. Fans want wins. Bottom line. If the team can do that without Olajuwon, they won't care either way. It would be better if Dream could remain but his "final game" last year still had 5,000 available tickets the day before the game. He is an icon but he doesn't make or break fan interest. These should really be taken separately. Yes, he was the reason we won titles. Without him, we don't have them. However, the Rockets have paid him well for his services and done everything to accommodate his needs and desires over the last umpteen years. They do NOT owe him more money than what the rest of the league is willing to pay. They do NOT owe it to him to sacrifice young talent to have him retire in a Rockets uni. This is a team game. Hakeem's importance to the city notwithstanding, his salary should be comenserate with his ability. That really isn't the issue. The issue is whether or not he is worth sacrificing the cap space necessary to keep him here. No other team made him an offseason priority and offered him $10 million or $7 million or even $5 million. Teams have only offered him their exception worth $4.5 million. The Rockets have no responsibility to top that if it means jeopardizing their own situation. It doesn't really matter what you or I think of Taylor, Anderson, Norris and Bullard. The Rockets are responsible for determining their worth in relation to this team as well as the worth of Hakeem. I want Hakeem back with the Rockets but I would never do ANYTHING to bring him back. He is a health risk who has grown increasingly antagonistic over his role on the team. If he wasn't an icon and a legend, most would have wanted him drawn and quartered by now (can you say Cato?). Teams have not offered more than we have (beyond a few hundred thousand here or there). The Rockets are responsible to their own future and if signing Hakeem to a more lucrative deal means mortgaging some of that future or slowing the eventual progress of the team, they shouldn't pay him more than what they have offered. If he chooses to go somewhere else, he won't get more than what he is being offered here anyway. All the Rockets owe him is the chance to retire in Houston. If he doesn't want that, I can respect that, but it doesn't fall on the team's shoulders to bear that burden. It falls to Hakeem. ------------------ How the hell should I know why God would allow the Holocaust. I don't even know how the electric can opener works. - from Hannah and Her Sisters
Antonio Davis is 33 or 34, so what...if you look at both players' overall careers, Hakeem's might be closer to the sunset, but at some point the sun was shining much brighter during Hakeem's day, so even at 38, there will be more light than for AD at 34 (trying to come up with some strange analogies now as well ). Who cares if Hakeem plays only 50 games, as long as that helps us to the playoffs and he turns it up there! As ZRB rightly said, I would rather have 50 Hakeem games than 82 Cato or Collier games!!!! ------------------ Rockets' offseason tasks in order of priority: Get rid of Cato under any circumstances - ideally in a trade (with draft picks from us to them) that brings us Raef LaFrentz (dreaming). Re-Sign Hakeem. Re-Sign Mo Taylor. Re-Sign Moochie and AirBullard. Pick up the Langhi option for another year. Sign-and-trade Shandon Anderson for Bo Outlaw.
For the past two seasons fans have b****ed about Dream UNTIL he was able to string together some nice games last season, capped off with a cloberring of Minny. Your only as good as your last game I guess, not 2 seasons of mediocre ball. I would rather the Rockets focus on a core of players that can contribute for a WHOLE season, vs draining the cap and growth of the younger players. Leave the ball in Dreams court, retire a Rocket with a 4.5 million salary, or take his ego and wallet to another team that will suck his toes and gonads due to their own desperation for a big man. Focus on resigning Taylor to a reasonable contract for a one dimensional PF. Sign Moochie long term and decide on what to do with SA. ------------------
lol, a week ago TRG said he was a lock to resign. The problem with Dream on a 2 year contract is that it eliminates any possibility of us having any cap room for probably the next 15 years. We had a window to use the Dream windfall, it was this year or next. Signing Dream for multiple years pretty much takes out the possibility of this year and next year. Leaving us with virtually no cap room till the Francis era ends, which probably won't happen for a long time. More myth dispelling: The summer Duncan is available, Francis' cap number balloons to 11 million. crispee had a thread about this. There is very little possibility we'll have the cap room to sign Duncan, not even accounting for the amount of teams that will be chasing him. Our chances are probably just as good pursuing him via sign and trade when that day comes, which is just to say highly unlikely. It's way to difficult to look through the crystal ball. The odds of Rockets management giving Hakeem more than a 2 year deal are minimal anyhow, so he won't effect it one way or another. By that time, Cato will be playing for his next contract anyways, so the center will be covered. ------------------ "I always thought Hakeem was the better offensive player and DRob the better defender." Spurever Shaq would probably agree.
ZRB, I agree with you 100%. I am a fan of Rockets, not the owner of Rockets. I don't really care how Hakeem deals with the MANAGEMENT, as long as he works on the court. ------------------
ZRB, good post, however, some minor flaws, the Rockets had to lose to Seattle a couple of time in the playoffs before advancing, my point, Hakeem will not make that big of difference at his age with L.A., Sacramento, Portland, or Dallas. Hakeem won titles in 94 and 95, that was a long time ago in reference to his baskteball skills, which have deteroiated maybe 40%. Bottom line, anything more than $5 mil per season is not a smart move. The smarter move is tradinng Cato, Walt Williams, and letting Shandon Anderson move on. I would rather have the cap money for next year, than play with salaried capped team over the next two or 3 years. I'm very optomistic about the Rockets opportunity next year and I feel the playoffs are in the future and maybe a second round appearance, however no further, do to Chemistry, Lack of Hustle (Cato, MoTaylor), Injuries (Dream has only played a little more than 2/3's of a season for the last 3). ------------------ Let go and let GOD!
Why compare Hakeem and Cato? Hakeem was underpaid for a long time and still steadily delivered fantastic seasons. Cato is one of the most overpaid guys and doesn't even try. So I could understand people wanting to draw and quarter Cato, but that is a totally different story. True - IF it means that. But it doesn't. IMHO, the key will be not to keep Shandon Anderson - I have said it many times, there is no place for him on this team - he had two years to assert and prove himself, but he hasn't done that - I don't care that he is a nice guy or whatever, his output too often is just not enough. Jeff, you have Shandon at about $ 4 mio. That is approximately what Hakeem was offered. WHY, WHY, WHY would anybody pay Shandon the same amount as Hakeem - even if Hakeem is 38 and everything, he just still produces a million times more than a guy like Shandon. Why do you say the Rockets only have $ 13 mio. cap space? I thought the Chron. said $ 18 mio. and aelliott or NIKEStrad or somebody said aboutg $ 16 mio.? Why are you so sure?? You are not really backing this statement up. ZRB, I and several others have said it many times, but it has not received much response: If Francis keeps developing into that dominating superstar PG he is on the verge of being, if Griffin pans out, if Hakeem plays solid in the C position and if Mobley and Taylor deliver the above average performances they are able to deliver, then WHY should we not be a contender? Don't forget, the Lakers can have injuries as well, and I find it a bit too pessimistic to go into a season with an attitude "we can't win it all anyway" if you have arguably the best PG in the league for the 2001-2002 season, a possible top 5 shooting guard, one of the best 3 rookies at SF, a top 15 PF and a top 5-7 C?? Matchups with the Lakers (10 is best grade): PG: Francis (10) / Fisher (5) SG: Mobley (7) / Kobe/Richmond (10) SF: Griffin/Morris/Langhi/Walt (6) / Fox (6) PF: Mo Taylor (7) / Horry/Samaki Walker (6) C: Hakeem (7) / Shaq (10) Bench: Rockets (7) / Lakers (5) Overall: Rockets (44) / Lakers (42) Okay, I stretched this one a little bit, but it should just illustrate that in a playoff series, anything is possible - but only WITH Hakeem - otherwise, the situation at Center is a totally different one. Mobley is already 27, should be close to his prime. Francis and Taylor are somewhere between 23 and 25, so they are not far from their prime, either. These three, together with Hakeem and the other vets, can take Griffin under their wings, as Mobley has already stated they would. Again, please don't be so pessimistic... I disagree. He is not more of a kid than the guys you mentioned before. He is probably more intelligent than at least Shaq and Iverson and probably more mature mentally than Shaq. I also strongly believe that this will be the year he will assert himself as the No. 1 point guard in the league, on at least the same level as Kidd and Payton. Sorry to be a bit disrespectful towards an admin here , but that does not make any sense at all. If playing Hakeem means diminished minutes for Cato, I am all for it. Diminished minutes, yes, but at the C position - it is not like he is taking away minutes from Griffin or Mo or Cat or Steve. Again, I completely disagree with your basic assumption that the team cannot contend for a title within the next two years. Ask Steve and Cat about it, and they will tell you something completely different. If that was what they thought, they would not even need to suit up for the season. IMHO, it is NOT EVEN about what the Rockets owe him - his market value actually IS higher than 4.1 mio. - especially if you see guys like McCulloch or even if you see a guy like Shandon demanding more than 4 mio. Therefore, it does NOT fall to Hakeem. It falls to the Rockets to come up with an offer that reflects something close to Hakeem's market value. Now let me try to do the math: I trust NIKESTRAD and aelliott who came up with something around 16 mio. cap space, if I am not mistaken (search doesn't work anymore ). In my book, it is very simple: 7 mio. to Dream (1 year with player option for second year) 6 mio. to Mo Taylor (6 year) 2 mio. to Moochie (4 year) 1 mio. to Air Bullard plus, pull the option on Langhi. Then, either sign-and-trade Shandon (don't we have his Bird rights) for Bo Outlaw or just let Shandon go. End of story. ------------------ Rockets' offseason tasks in order of priority: Get rid of Cato under any circumstances - ideally in a trade (with draft picks from us to them) that brings us Raef LaFrentz (dreaming). Re-Sign Hakeem. Re-Sign Mo Taylor. Re-Sign Moochie and AirBullard. Pick up the Langhi option for another year. Sign-and-trade Shandon Anderson for Bo Outlaw. [This message has been edited by Det The Threat (edited July 22, 2001).]
There is also a reason Dream didn't play more minutes. And don't embarass yourself with the "Rudy wouldn't play him" crap. Have you forgotten the blown point blank dunks? The giggling at the end of the bench? The reason Cato and Dream didn't play more minutes was one and the same - injury. Maybe you will find it less "silly" that for the last 4 years Hakeem has averaged 60% of the total playing time of David Robinson. Considering their age and conditioning differences, Dream ought to be worth 60% of Robinson's contract - $6.0M max Excuse me, but there is absolutely good reason to take probability into account when evaluating a business decision. The likelyhood of Dream playing 2.5x Cato's minutes in the coming season is remote. I think your numbers are a little high, but for the sake of discussion I will agree with them. Next, please prognosticate the total number of minutes Olajuwon will play for 2001-2002. This should be fairly high since you have already written off Cato as an alternative (I quote you again - "There is a reason that Cato didn't play more minutes"). For fun, we can revisit this at seasons end. I never said it was. The problem is two years guaranteed makes it $12.7M total. To the best of my knowledge, no team has offered $6M cash or trade with 2 years guaranteed - including the Raptors. Perhaps there is a reason? Maybe the other teams' have calculated the "silly" probabilities. ------------------ Raef to Rocks in '01-'02!
Please don't take it personal... I just get emotional talking about this issue . In fact, your amounts and what I proposed are very close. What I heard (here on the board) was that Hakeem was offered only 4.1 mio. - I think something around 7 mio. plus an option for him for another year under the same conditions (which I think he would not exercise) would be very adequate, considering all the circumstances. Not far from your 6 mio... ------------------ Rockets' offseason tasks in order of priority: Get rid of Cato under any circumstances - ideally in a trade (with draft picks from us to them) that brings us Raef LaFrentz (dreaming). Re-Sign Hakeem. Re-Sign Mo Taylor. Re-Sign Moochie and AirBullard. Pick up the Langhi option for another year. Sign-and-trade Shandon Anderson for Bo Outlaw. [This message has been edited by Det The Threat (edited July 22, 2001).]
Title contention. I have seen many people argue that even with Hakeem, we don't have what it takes to contend for a title this year or next but... 1. If with Hakeem on the team, the young guys get their first taste of the playoffs and have a steadying veteran there to help them. With Hakeem we have a better chance of getting further and someone who knows playoff pressure to help them. 2. This way once the Dream is gone and the team is in the playoffs, the adjustment period is less. The guys are already more used to the playoff environment. 3. Without Hakeem maybe they might make the playoffs, or maybe not. Another year with no playoff experience. 4. If they do make the playoffs, they don't have the veteran leadership that understands what it takes to advance, and how to handle all the playoff pressure. So they don't learn the most from their playoff appearance. 5. Therefore I think even if they aren't in contention now, in order to maximize their contention years, they should re-sign Hakeem and get a taste of what the playoffs are really about. ------------------
ZRB, You have posted many times that the only reason Hakeem was not contributing in the first half of the season was that Rudy did not have him in the game. I seem to recall a wheezing Hakeem ambling up and down the court and getting blocked by the rim on more than one wide open dunk attempt. Let us not have selective memory about the Hakeem that we have seen for the past two years. Putting up one string of good games for about an eighth of a season does not warrant giving Hakeem $6 mil + for two years. At least Cato has potential. The Dream is over, it is time to wake up and smell the guard era of Rocketball. ------------------ I cut all the heads off of a Hydra, and all I got was this StupidMoniker. "God is dead" - Friedrich Nietzsche ~1880 "Nietzshce is dead" - God 1900
