Just a reality check since some people like to use players like Brandon Ingram as case studies for young players who had slow starts before turning a corner. The difference is that Ingram was an actual elite basketball player the whole time, not just a kid who happened to be 6'10" and comes from an NBA family. And if you need a good laugh or maybe a nighttime sleep aid, you can compare Jabari's high school tape... Spoiler
Haha did they call him Bari Parker? Had the dream that Jabari is Jabari Parker the other day. Jahlil Okafor.....
Yall REALLY can't be using high school mixtapes lol. Jabari was a top recruit too with highschool mixtapes. All of these guys are lol. Mac Mclung had high school mixtapes. Everyone in the NBA thats young enough has youtube highschool mixtapes. This ain't proof of anything.
Who says I'm offended? Just because I'm challenging some of your points doesn't mean I'm offended or mad. That's yall that take these posts personal. I just type what I got to say and move on and reply when I want to. I don't hold grudges here. Like I said, I found it odd YOU made excuses for Sengun, excuses you challenged others on making. Some of yall contradicting yourselves. One day making the rookie ladder matters and the next day it doesn't. One day its fine to blame Silas for Sengun's poor play the next it isn't fine to blame Silas for Jabari's poor play.
Nah, he would be. I actually challenge yall to have these discussions with neutral parties and see how people respond. Thinking Garuba could be more effective than Jabari with an even more limited moveset is out there. That he's the 'worst rookie' or among the worst is super hyperbolic.
Nope, we weren't arguing if Jalen was still regarded as the best player in his draft class, we were arguing if he had trade value. You were saying some other players had more value or something and I was telling you that GMs do not think short term like you do. They do the same "He's 19, we can fix em" and so having 'potential' is still valuable for trading. Then you were getting at trading Jalen Williams for Green which is a silly idea because of course if Jalen Williams was asked to be the primary scorer for a team...you know, a guy who gets assisted on like 80% of his shots or something, he'd look even worse than Jalen Green. Also, you not gonna slither away from this. You were bragging about how Jalen Williams was on the NBA Rookie Ladder and now when its brought up that Jabari is also on it, it's "Nope, that still means he's bad." That's what I'm arguing. I'm pointing out the double standards you clearly have and the confirmation bias you've set up for yourself.
You missed my point, but managed to bolster it at the same time. Impressive. What I'm showing is that you can look back at a player's high school tape in order to get an idea of their skillset. Maybe it takes a while for them to adapt it to the NBA or maybe they just don't get the opportunity to, aren't in the right role, etc. But you can see the talent, the abilities, the feel for the game that they have when they're "the man" playing against inferior competition. So yes, my entire point is that all top prospects have mix tapes, even the Mac McClung's. Most of them look like they're on the And-1 tour because they're just that much more skilled than anyone else on the court. They're playing with their food on every possession. They're showing skills outside of their typical role and position. If we had that kind of footage of Jabari, there would be hope that he just needs to unlock some aspects of his game that are lying dormant for whatever reason. But we don't. His "mix tape" is about as uninspiring as you'll find, especially for a guy who was projected to go #1 for months.
What is there to defend? Like I don't know what else I have to say to yall? Did I come here saying Jabari is lighting it up and dominating? No. But I guess since i'm not circle jerking the hate train narrative and pointing out...oh hey, actually Jabari has been rebounding the ball well amongst rookies, oh actually he's been playing good defense...and not "HE HAS NO SKILLS AND CAN'T PLAY BASKETBALL!!! WORST PLAYER I'VE EVER SEEN!" I'm defending him lol. I'm not defending his play, but you and the others are WAY hyperbolic about this. Calling him the worst rookie in the league, some the worst player in the league, another guy one of the worst rookies in recent memory... But meanwhile yall ignore ALL context that the vast majority of 19 year old players that come into the nba...like the VAST VAST majority, Struggle. That rookies struggle. You can't just wave that off as if it means nothing. Coming in here and pointing out that a 19 year old has been struggling in the NBA is not a surprise. The only people talking about him being a bust and having some outstandingly bad season are people on THIS forum. That should tell you something right there. Outside of here people just think he's a rookie doing rookie things. Here though? "One of the worst seasons I've ever seen!" I mean you said this... How is this not an overreaction post? The Rockets should trade a 19 year old player for struggling in the NBA after one season?? I mean sure, he'll have more value now than ever if he's a bust...but this to me is a major overreaction post. You also later contradicted admitting that his main issue is his shooting. Saying his defense isn't mind blowingly good but no one said that, it has the potential to be. He's played amazing defense some nights, no it's not consistent, no rookie is consistent at anything. As Paolo is showing. Btw @SamFisher since you like articles and media opinions so much, where are all the articles about Jabari being a bust and having one of the worst rookie seasons? Funny, I remember tons of these articles when Kwame and Bennet played. Odd no ones writing about it, its almost like even the NBA media expects these struggles and thinks its no big deal. Hell, didn't it just come out that James Harden liked Jabari's game along with Jalen Green? That's interesting to me.
If one player had any chance at being a useful player, advanced metrics would be the first thing to agree with him. That is not the case here and he doesn't have the speed and athleticism of a Jalen Green. It is not the case here, meaning it would take this player a ton load of work to get better and yep the grass is greener for Alperen at advanced metrics! You just ignore stats.
I guess, not seeing the strength of this argument honestly. Even if Jabari became what he's projected to become it wouldn't be an exciting player. He shoots threes, he defends, that's the player he was projected to be. It's really not the most exciting mixtape. I remember some people making this argument against me when it came to Mobley v Green, that Mobley looked boring, not as explosive, etc etc... Don't think scouts care too much about mixtapes. He was always a highly regarded prospect.
I'm going to reveal a dirty little secret here...the advanced metrics we have...people in the NBA do not swear by them. If they did, there wouldn't ever be trades where one guy with worse metrics gets traded for another guy. It's not NBA 2k "Oh this guy is rated 81 why would I trade a 81 for a 76 ovr?!?!" teams have to make their own determinations about how players fit on their team and what they can get out of them. This is why Westbrook continues to get on teams because teams always think "We can make it work." since Russ is not loved by most metrics these days. Teams will sometimes have their own 'metrics' and coaches will sometimes NOT use them. Why? Like I mentioned. TPA is useless. If Silas used TPA he'd give more minutes to Nix than Green, but even Silas isn't that braindead. If you showed him that he'd probably tell you what I said. Jalen Green has a larger responsibility therefore some of his advanced stats look worse than those also on the team. I know Popovic isn't a fan of them but I know the Spurs are one of the teams that re heavy into analytics but nothing like these "Overall" equations that try to add everything together to determine who is the best player. These are fine though for discussing who is the MVP, top 5 players, etc but... Metrics are better for talking about a SPECIFIC thing, like shooting or efficiency, probably not the best idea to bring them into play here. There is no stat, so far, (Unless Morey has it underwraps...) that determines a players overall. Teams do not use analytics generally to determine who should play, they use them to determine...okay, this player shoots better in this area of the court...this player shoots 38% here, we should make sure he stops shooting this shot, stuff like this. Not "Jabari is a bad player that needs to be benched." that's a deeper discussion of like I said...whose getting Jabari's minutes? Are we developing him? What's our goal here? This is the main point of analytics. PJ Tucker shoots X% from corner, we should give him corner threes...or as Battier (or nowadays Draymond) uses them to try and force players into bad shooting areas on the court and even then the players are not thinking numbers. Just "He don't shoot well from the left corner." I say all this to say. Jabari has had a bad season, I don't know how many times I've had to say this. I do not think there is any evidence to show he's had the 'worst' of rookie seasons in any form, nor is he the 'worst' rocket. I don't think metrics show this. A TPA chart shows he gets too many minutes but again...the goal is to develop him. I also do not think there is any evidence that proves he's a bust because such evidence, unless extreme cases, does NOT exist in the first season of a 19 year old. Like seriously, yall downplay the 19 year old thing by a lot. But outside of a few exceptions, Lebron, Durant, Doncic...I mean some guys had some very at best meh seasons, some guys had terrible seasons, point being struggling at 19 is not something that should be ringing alarm bells that we're dealing with a surefire Bust that we need to trade. It would be nice if he came into the league shooting like Klay, clearly that's not happening. It doesn't make him the worst player, right now, today, it means he has yet to prove he an shoot at the NBA level. He could prove it next year, for yall sake, he better not.
Lol now you are not coasting no more. Metrics never lie but GMs lie so of course you rather trust stats than people. I have never excused Sengun, he isn't perfect, and I am not Jacky Chiles or AroundtheW. The thing about Jabari is scouts never owned up publicly to their mistakes in their reports. The eye test says Jabari is a chucker who plays 30 mpg and doesn't help his team that much. That's the gist of this season.
You don't see the problem. Like ever. I am not even mad that he is bad. He is bad and he still chucks like nothing happened. That's bad IQ. That's a bad mindset and nothing like Duncan or Evan Mobley as you suggested because they knew exactly to dial back on their weaknesses.
Yeah I am, you don't really see me getting mad at the Rockets losing. I expect it. I warned people rebuilding takes years, I settled into it. So yeah I am coasting. Me posting on a board doesn't contradict that in any way lol. You didn't read anything I said about metrics. People using metrics to determine the overall value of ap layer, that doesn't exist. These metrics like the chart some were sharing earlier, say Nix is better than Green. Anyone watching the two play know that simply is not true. GMs know that is not true, despite them being nearly the same age you can guess who has more value around the league. Metrics be damned. The claim isn't that GMs lie, what is there to lie about? Every move they make is judged. You think teams were looking at Westbrook's metrics the past few years and going "Yeah, we have to have him!" no. Teams were going "We can fix him, he'll play better here because..." my point was metrics are not used the way you guys use them in arguments. There is no magical stat that determines an overall, if there was, there would be no lopsided trades.
Oh yeah, that's great for his development. He should never attempt an open 3 again. That'll fix his shot...
Obviously the Rockets never hired top shooting coaches. The shooting around Harden at his best was 36-38% and that was with offensive genius MDA. I agree that Jabari should go to another team, he is not a great fit here just as Sengun isn't appreciated here by Silas. The Rox are so bad at development that it has been depressing.
No I'm saying it's possible to be 7th in a rookie ladder AND be horrible overall at the same time. I mean, im sure if rookie ladders existed then, Darko was once up there with LeBron, Wade and Carmelo - who cares? If i say you're a top 7 bbs rhetorical defender of Jabari Smith, it could still be be that your defenses of Jabari Smith are poor overall! He's not giving you much to work with so it's possible for these 2 things simultaneously be true. To the extent anyone cares about rookie ladders, they're directional indicators of what is otherwise scant evidence. Obviously they're not absolute science, but Williams rise and Smith's fall in such things tell a story about their relative performance this season. One guy overperformed, and one guy was a disaster. While we're on the subject, I'd probably rather have Williams and his versatility and all around game at this stage over Green's lead guard only role because of Green's net regression and Williams doesn't drag a team down the way Green does when he's misfiring, so IMO both Giddey and Williams > Green, but now im setting off the fchowd alarm. Uh oh.
