Well actually AD and Alvin are role players. Wait til Vincanity creates and dishes. I think Toronto is a very good team but until you find that #2 guy(Morris Peterson)or Dream your still just a good team... Toronto is fun to watch but AD is a good player(good hands but not a offensive machine). Alvin really stepped up his game this past season but can he keep stepping up his game to another level(it remains to be seen)... ------------------
It says he's an informed basketball fan, the east is terrible. First, let's compare records. rockets 45-37 raptors 47-35 let's take a few things in to consideration here. the rockets play in a much stronger conference than the raptors yet end up only 2 games behind them. the rockets also blew the raptors out of the water in their games. Put the raptors into the western conference and you have a team with 40-44 wins, put the rockets into the east and you have a 53-57 win team. The superior team is easy to identify, and that team is not in canada. The main reason I say this is because the rockets went 25-5 against the east and the raptors went 11-17 against the west. If we extrapolate their respective records against the conferences out then we get these records: rockets (East 43-9)(West 13-17) 56-26 raptors (East 20-10)(West 20-32) 40-42 ------------------ Anyone need a C/C++/Win32/HTML/PHP/SQL/Java/Perl/x86 coder?
I think you will agree that the Rockets can offer Jackson more than the Warriors. Regarding Seattle, I think you have not cranked out the numbers for yourself and are (erroneously) relying on numbers someone else has posted on a Raptors BBS. If you would like me to e-mail the correct Rockets cap, I will. The Rockets have $6.0M cap room to match Seattle - trust me. The question then becomes, if you were Marc Jackson would you rather play with the Sonics (not even knowing if Payton will be there or gone), the Pistons (yea, right) or the Rockets? ------------------ Raef to Rocks in '01-'02!
Hey, yet another Raptors fan here. (What can I say, the Olajewan thing is big). First off, Flutie. Let's please try to keep this civilized. THis is one heck of an intellient board, let's not reduce it to the Espn board's level. (Next thing you know we'll have Redman on here telling everyone how the Raptors rule and Houston sucks). Ok, now... First off, The Raptors could use Hakeem more than Houston can. He is exacly the guy we need. A proven center, a veteran, someone who can teach, and perhaps even dominate in the East. Saying all that, Hakeem is still yours to loose. All your management really has to do is say "Ok, Big Boy. You want 2/10, you got it". To say that Toronto has all the leverage is absolutely false. You guys still do (as long as your willing to call a bluff and match the Raptors offer). Next...You would LOVE Keon. Absolutely adore him, he fits your team beatufully. A big guy, who can run and jump as high as anyone in the game. He's young, explosive...an ok shooter for a big man...you name it. He got limited minutes on the Raps last season, but some of the games he played he was phenominal. In one game against Atlanta, I beleive he had 13 bocks, that tells you all right there. In fact I beleive he was 2nd in the NBA in blocks/minutes. All that said, that's precisely the reason why I doubt you guys would get him in a trade As for our team. The team we started last year and the team we had which ended the season were completely different. In fact, the only 2 starters that we kept from beginning to the end were Vince and Davis. After all the trades were made, the team finished 19-8. That's the team that will start next season. For that reason I beleive Raptors to be a top contender in the East, and if we do happen to land Hakeem, THE top contender. However, your team is in a great position as well. You already have a team that competes, but not only that, you're also young, and have room under the cap. You're going to do some damage in the next few years, no question about it. Lastly, no we do not have Cuban type management, but our management isn't cheap, they'll spend what's needed. Add to that the fact that Grunwald (our GM) is a cap genious, and I do beleive he has it all planned out. I cannot forsee the Raptors paying the Luxury tax next season, if ever. Have a good one, Great board. ------------------
Raptor, if T-town thinks Hakeem puts them over the top, go for it. However, I would like to know what your bench and future looks like once Vince bolts and you don't win the title. Hakeem has used cold weather cities in the past (Vancouver) as pYentire life in warm weather climates, don't underestimate this impact on his decision. In addition, your taxes definitely impacts the final dollar Hakeem receives and he is a very astute business man when it comes to his money. Neither your taxes or climate works in your favor. Once again, he's pimping you to get money from the Rockets ------------------ Let go and let GOD!
Funny how Flutie comes over and complains about people saying the Raptors suck when his first post rips into Mo Taylor. The fact is the Raptors don't have leverage, because New York and Indiana as well as Houston are in the running for Hakeem. Hakeem hasn't signed a contract, so nothing is done. As for Mutombo being the "best rebounder of the last decade", I'm pretty sure Dennis Rodman and Charles Barkley would have something to say about that! ------------------ "Instruments are like women: After a while, you want to make love to another." - Nicolas Godin of the musical duo Air
Come on, if Dream goes to Toronto Houston would have more then enough money to re-sign their own FAs, and outbid Seattle and Golden State for Marc Jackson's services! ------------------ "Instruments are like women: After a while, you want to make love to another." - Nicolas Godin of the musical duo Air
Great post Art Vandelei, It's really good to hear other team's fans viewpoints. You're doing a good job too, Flutie, just don't get bogged down in the petty name calling and team hating that deteriorates an otherwise awesome bbs. By the way, Doug Flutie's band ain't too shabby. As for Dream in Toronto, I think he would be a great fit. His offensive versitality combined with Antonio's offensive versitality (which he didn't develop until last year) would create the best front court in the least, I mean east. I think one of the Raptor's greatest defeciencies was the lack of scoring when Vince was shut down. AD would pick it up here and there, and he was great at times, but Dream would surely add that extra weapon that y'all need.(unlike Houston, where the Rocks don't NEED that extra weapon. It'd help, but I don't think it's a need.) If Dream walks, I think it would be due to many reason, even though the money/respect thing would still be up there. My theory is that he likes being courted (like a girl) and just wanted to know what it's like to be a free agent for the first time in his career. If I were him, with no harsh feelings, I would chose Toronto and ask for a S&T for Keon and the 5.6 mil trade exception. Thus, I'd make close to 8 mill, go to a team that could contend next year, and do a change of scenery. Unlike Duncan, who doesn't like change, I think after spendin 20 years working in one city (and having the greatest time in the world), there's nothing wrong with moving to try something new. The Raps, by the way, do not have 100% leverage. Too many factors in the equation for that to be. The only thing that I can remember as close to 100% leverage was Pippen dissen his own team and asking to be traded...that was bad. This is not that situation. As for Keon Clark, he does not suck, but he is not great either. I think he's duplicate in terms of physical specimen of Cato. Skinny, athletic, can jump through the roof, can't muscle down a rebound so well. I'd still take him though, b/c he might have heart. I think him and Cato together, have the Potential to be an awesome athletic and defensive force to run with the young guns the Rocks have. Imagine, Clark, Cato, and Griffin in your front court...wow. You'd see people flying after swats everywhere (of course Cato would be wiffing at air, but that's a different story). Anyhow, Dream would fit the Raps better, and Clark would fit the Rocks better. It'd be nice to keep Dream though, but unnecessary. Either way, the Rocks will still kick your ass like last year. ------------------
Brilliant. "The east sucks". That says it all when it comes to the quality of your opinion, now doesn't it? oh, yeah. "raptors have all the leverage" "rockets will have no cap room to pursue Marc" that says it all when it comes to the quality of your ignorance. Dude just look at the 8 east teams that made it to the playoffs and compare the 8 teams that make it to the playoffs in the west. East teams don't stand a chance as far as talent goes. The East is just a speedbump to the championship for any west team that makes it to the finals. All signs point to the Rockets trying to re-sign ALL their young FAs and not Marc Jackson. They still can't offer as much as Seattle. Fahgetaboutit. Depends on what happens. Mo and Mooch are definitely going to be signed. If Dream doesn't sign for a low amount here however, the Rocks may pass on resigning Shandon if they like Marc and he wants to play here. You're just hating the Raptors. If you think Alvin Williams and Antonio Davis are roleplayers, you know nothing about the game of basketball and your opinion means nothing. I'm telling you about our cap situation because a Rocket fan enquired about it. READ THE THREAD. They are freaking role-players. Antonio is a damn good role-player. Alvin is getting there. But they are not stars. If i was building a team i would not pick up these two players and say these are my franchise players. And i have READ THE THREAD. Nice use of caps. Oh yeah, and Mutumbo is just like every other center right? The guy's the best rebounder of the past decade for God's sake. Keon is young, has never been to the playoffs and was overmatched against him. Everyone other than Shaq is overmatched against Mutumbo on the boards, especially someone who needs to work on their rebounding skills. Jeez, you're just hating the Raptors, aren't you? Mutumbo has his weakness. It's called offense. And if Keon can't mix it up with one of the few "talented" big bodies in the east, what's he gonna do when he comes out west? Probably sit on the bench come playoff time. Oh yeah I'm just a hater. I hate it when people come to the bbs and spout off things like "(fill in the blank: Eddie Robinson, Jamal Crawford, Alvin Williams, or another ROLE-PLAYER) are stars, whoever doesn't think so has no bball sense, and are haters!!!!" Or claim that their team is so brilliant for overpaying players because they would really prefer to play in other places like Orlando. Or how about when a fan of a team with a little bit of cap space right about over exception money claims that their team has all the leverage in signing a 38 year old center who is visiting teams left and right. Raptor "hater"? I could care less about the Raptors. Hey good luck with your team, maybe in a few years you can win a game in the finals just like the sixers did this year.
Yes, intelligent fans are quite welcome, it makes up for people like me ------------------ Anyone need a C/C++/Win32/HTML/PHP/SQL/Java/Perl/x86 coder?
Ok, I've made a lot of these points before, but I like to see anything I've written in print, so I'll go ahead..(imagine a little smiley face here, don't know how to do it.) In terms of leverage, it's not a point any of us can comment on with any authority, as each teams leverage is dependent entirely upon internal decisions/preferences about which we can only surmise...IF Houston decides to priorize Olajuwon, than clearly they can offer the most money. However this could only be done at the cost of letting younger players go...Conversly, IF Olajuwon really feels slighted by the Rockets, and has decided to move on, than that last point is irrelevant...Therefore, as I said, we cannot truly discern who has "leverage" without knowing the inner workings of both the Rockets management, and Olajuwon himself... Having said all that, here are the advantages of each situation as I see it... Advantages: Houston... 1) Loyalty. 2) There is a prestige that accompanies playing an entire career with one team, and including college, Hakeem's status as THE all-time Houston athlete would be strengthened if that happens.. 3) Familiarity. Hakeem hasn't had to make a significant move since he came to Houston from Lagos. This kind of stability in and of itself is worth more than money to some people... 4) Chemistry. The fact that the Rockets all get along, and really enjoy playing together is a known quantity for Olajuwon, whereas the Raptors team chemistry would be an unknown at this point. Going to work every day with a bunch of guys who like working together is very appealing. Advantages: Toronto... 1) Canada...Contrary to some of the opinions expressed in this thread, Hakeem has repeatedly stated his affection for Canada, and had said that he would enjoy playing here. Moreover, he has 2 off-season homes in Canada, and as the AD situation illustrated, where a person chooses to live on his own time can be an indicator of where he is comfortable. This is NOT to say that he is uncomfortable in Houston, or would be MORE comfortable in Toronto, but is merely an indicator that, at the least, living in Canada would not be a factor against signing with the Raptors... 2) The East... Were Hakeem to be able to match up against some of the lightweight C's of the East, he would be able to dominate more than if he stays in Houston. He would immediately become one of the best big men in the Conference, and the fact that AD was able to make the All-Star team (starter, no less..yes, injuries played a factor) on the Raptors due to the East could be an incentive Hakeem would look to as applying to himself... 3) Team System...Hakeem's low-post talents, coupled with his sworn alliegence to the inside-outide sytem of basketball (which, coincidentally, utilizes his own talents most) are clearly at odds with the way the Rockets are going. The Raptors, on the other hand, would love to run the kind of offense that Olajuwon enjoys, and are looking for a true low-post option with which they can operate. 4) Pride/Ego...WHile much has been made of the Raptors courting of Olajuwon with appeals to his pride/ego, and the possible slight he has felt in that department from Houston (complaining about only getting touches off rebounds, possible feeling initial offer was a 'slap'), I don't think another ego/pride element has been examined. Hakeem is in an uncomfortable situation for a man with as much pride as he has. He has clearly been THE MAN in Houston for over almost two decades. Equally clearly, he no longer is..this is Stevie's team now, and will be for as long as Olajuwon remains...While Hakeem wouldn't be THE MAN were he to sign with Toronto,it is an easier transition when you're coming to a team whose star is already established, rather than to play with your own supplanter every day, and bear witness to his star eclipsing your own in the city you once owned... Having stated the situation as I see it, I still maintain that there are other factors whose influence will be considerable, but whose nature we can only guess at. Hakeem has stated that he had more "fun" with the current core of Rockets, but he has also expressed frustration with his role on the team, and reportedly stated that his presence on the Raptors would have gotten them to the Finals last year. I'm not sure what you can contrue from these mixed utterances, and as such I won't attempt to... BTW--- I have asked this before, and despite being a courteous and (recently) fairly regular poster on this board, I have yet to receive a single reply to my question. I will try again, and would ask that, if you don't have any information for me, please tell me that , as I will at least feel acknowledged, if not satisfied...(smiley face, etc.) My question is... IS THERE ANY WAY I CAN GET THE ROCKETS GAMES IN TORONTO, VIA INTERNET OR WHATEVER? I WOULD APPRECIATE ANY ADVICE/INFO... Thanks in advance. ------------------
good post JAG. That's about it, in a nutshell. Don't forget to add in the possibility of the other teams pursuing him to complicate matters even further though as for your rockets game question ... does Canada offer NBA league pass on direct tv or ppv or something? I think it's 150 or 200 bucks but you get every single NBA game. I don't know much about it but a lot of people on the bbs have it. And no, I don't think there are games via internet yet, but there is radio broadcasts. try out sportsterminal.com it's radio broadcasts are free and better than looking at the stupid nba.com live-box scores all the time. Also check out the clutchcity.net chat room during the season. It's pretty rad. There's heath the stat-bot and quite a few other rabid rocket fans in regular attendance. [This message has been edited by CriscoKidd (edited July 22, 2001).]
Criscoe... Thanks for your ifo, I really do appreciate it. I will check on the PPV, and if not, will have to be happy with radio via internet for now. Again, thanks. Re: My post. Aside from my various posts, I realize upon re-reading it that I omitted another large advantage, or at least left it as understood. That factor is the immediate future of the team. I know that everyone here already knows this, but I was trying to be comprehensive, so I'll say it for the record: Due to the relative weakness of the Eastern Conference, it is clear that Toronto's immediate playoff potential is greater than Houston's. Whereas Toronto might just be favored to make the Finals should they acquire Olajuwon, Houston's days as a serious Finals contender, while great, are probably not going to occur in the time Olajuwon has left...This is NOT my salvo in the Houston vs. Toronto debate (being a fan of both teams, that discussion is both thrilling and painfull..smiley), but merely a statement of fact regarding their respective situatuations. And, as for Championship asperations, while both teams are probably fairly inferior to a team like the Lakers (ouch!), it would be much easier for Toronto to defeat 1 better team, in 1 series, (factor in injuries, player like Carter getting hot, ect.) than it would be for Houston to beat better teams (for now) like L.A., Dallas, San Antonio, and Sacramento in series after series. It'sjust a matter of the law of averages.. ------------------
nice posts all. Flutie, even though you're getting dissed (hard), for a first thread you sure haver a lot of people talking. nba.com radio is ok, not great. Just uses one of the teams (think the away) local radio commetnators online. Have heard some aweful 'casts, totally one sided (in a bad way (ie not houston's)). Haven't joined the pay radio service, normally at class during game time. JAG, smileys are easy. simple ones: use a : followed by a ) for a basic smiley or a ; and a ) for a wink Try to find your own...hours of amusement (if you have no life). ------------------ "Hakeem gets a 3 with the final shot" - my second favorite moment of 95 finals
I don't wanna diss n e body's team but uh.....the east is like no good.....I mean are u kidding your self.....come on, I celebrate when rockets go against the east....not being a hater just not being stupid.....but what do I know.... philly is a threat to all western confrence teams.....and Eastern superstars are pretty bad ass....I see that you guys are switching on who has the leverage. The only team that could create any conflict would be the raptors... They don't have full leverage (no one does cept Dream) but they are the only team that might get him besides H-town... I do think it would be a nice fit for raptors but I hate to think all you rocket fans have forgot about how nice it would be to go to the last game Dream plays with H-town and retires....I didn't go to the t-wolves game.... I would like hakeem on the team more out of want cuz he is like my favorite player but he does kinda slow us down.... he won't be like the stopper of us growing...I mean lots of players like to play with him to learn and be with a legend. A reason why all those teams want Dream and are not going for Marc.....Marc is nice but try Hakeem first.....the raptors are offering all they can.....I agree with ZRB that we can at least try a bit more....I also agree with the rest of you that the amount should not be to much to hamper the future....I would love to be a contender and I am sick of this playing for the future crap... Yes we are a future team but we can go for it now....ever since I watch the Rockets they were contenders....this losing and not making playoffs is like wierd....As for the s/t thing....I do not know n e figures (cap amount) nor do I need them....I am pretty sure the Dream said that he would either not sign with the raptors or make sure a sign and trade between the two would benefit the rockets because of what the rockets did for him before and not trading him to the raptors originaly. Some of you ppl are saying if dream likes Rocks so much why isn't he signing....well why isn't he signing with the raptors...they are offering him everything they can right now and the rocks won't do a s/t if we get crap players....we arn't total morons....there is not much else raptors can do accept offer s/t giving up someone other than those crappy mentioned touchables....or the rockets will give more money and that wierd Dream might be gone feeling goes away...And as of right now the rockets have tons of cap space after this Dream issue...why is it impossible to get Marc....I'd like to know. Once again I am just stating my opinions and they might be wrong. at any rate the east sucks (I just don't know a lot about basketball, call me ignorant). ------------------ yeah aight whatever
You are right...that was a huge dropoff: NY: 4.4 ppg, 2.4 rpg, .4 bpg, 37% fg in 9.2 min Phil: 2.2 ppg, 1.8 rpg, .17 bpg, 35%, 9.5 min If only he had kept up his 1st round, huge, numbers, you guys would have made it to the finals! Hell, even Cato in a disappointing, injury-plagued year gave us 4.7, 4, .89, and 57%. Sure, he didn't play in the playoffs, but it is not as if Cato's play could fall off because he doesn't show up...he didn't show up all year, so it would be the same. Tracy Murray's play also dropped after the first round. Dikembe must have shut him down, too. ------------------ Squatting on old bones and excrement and rusty iron, in a white blaze of heat, a panorama of naked idiots stretches to the horizon. Complete silence-their speech centers are destroyed-except for the crackle of sparks and the popping of singed flesh as they apply electrodes up and down the spine. White smoke of burning flesh hangs in the motionless air. A group of children have tied an idiot to a post with barbed wire and built a fire between his legs and stand watching with bestial curiosity as the flames lick his thighs. His flesh jerks in the fire with insect agony.
Or you just can look up the smiles legend at the left side of the screen when you're posting ------------------ Bigamy is having one wife too many.Monogamy is the same
I just wanna say, and i don't think anyone agrees, but I'd take Cato over Clark anyday. Cause, Clark couldn't stand up to anyone in the West without lookin up, but Cato's slightly bigger and taller, with the same potential. In a one on one, I think Cato would be the better player. Also, I'd like to see Antonio Davis playing as a legitamite C in the West. He's arguably not even one of the top 5 or six Cs in the West. While I see how him at PF, and Hakeem at C would rule the East, I don't see how wed DIE if we lost him. Still, WE have leverage, simply because he SAID he'd rather play in Houston. Money's not a problem for Houston, and if the Raptors offer 4.5 million, the Rockets WILL top that over two years. Do you really think that the Rockets would decline paying Hakeem 10M over two years? They're just trying to get the best deal possible, and when the time comes, they'll put the best deal on the table. As for the comparison between our teams, I'm sorry, but I'd rather be in our situation. Vince is up in the air, Davis is in his early 30's and signed TOO longterm, and not to mention he has to play C. If not, Jerome Williams won't be too happy playin behind him with Clark on the roster too. As for us, we have Francis, Mobley, Griffin, and Mo Taylor. That's four spots locked up by players for years to come. If Hakeem bolts, and Mark Jackson's available, tell me, how can resist being part of a team like that for the same or more money? Not to mention seattle WON'T offer all the capspace to him. If Hakeem's in Toronto, good luck, but what I'm tryin to say here is, Houston has the upper hand. ------------------
Sorry I missed all of this. Raptor's fans: You're not completely irrational, but you have to look at what you're saying. Everything you state seems to be based on this other-dimension in which the Raptors are always in a slightly better position. Of course, most of us here are the same way about the Rockets... but we seem to realize that . Anyway, here's my take: Keon Clark. He looks better than Kelvin Cato... but he's really in exactly the same position Cato was 2 years ago. Good shot blocker, loads of athletic talent... but unproven. Clark could develop into a viable starting center... or he could bust. No way of knowing. The Rockets have more leverage than you think for the following reason: Hakeem evidently really wants money more than anything else. He made initial demands to the Rockets... if these had been met, he'd be signed already. Hence we know that it's not about winning, but rather money. Houston can give him more than Toronto, period. They just don't want to; but they can definitely blackmail Toronto into giving them a better sign-and-trade. Toronto v Houston: Vince Carter, Antonio Davis vs Francis, Mobley, Taylor, Griffin. Rockets seem quite a bit better, primarily because they have more talented players. Carter is great... but A. Davis shouldn't be the 2nd best player on any team. You argue that the Raptors were better at the end of last year... but don't you realize that the Rockets were as well? At the end, they were almost at an elite-level. It was a screwy mid-season that really hurt them and kept them out of the playoffs. Houston has more overall talent, more depth... Toronto is in a soft conference. ------------------ Clutchcity.net... source for all your Rockets, Astros, political, music, humor, and Gordita news.
