Carlos Beltran announces retirement

SuraGotMadHops · Jan 6, 2023

rpr52121 said: ↑

Rosenthal from theathletic post similar reservations about Beltran especially this year.

My main annoyance with all these, is that still seem to put the Astros incident as warranting this much discussion and ignoring other known instances of similar pitch cheating throughout the league. Rosenthal even tries to justify it with the argument that if any other team had done something as bad, certainly we would have heard about it by now.
Click to expand...

LOL, we have Ken...Eric Kratz, Logan Morrison, Chris Sale, Chris Bassett, investigations into two other franchises (with punishments), the Yankee letter in FEDERAL COURT, Will Clark, the Commissioner himself who said on a damn microphone "it wasn't just Houston, we received complaints about other teams"....Ken and his sanctimonious cohorts just enjoy throwing all that into the memory hole.

Nick · Jan 6, 2023

lnchan said: ↑

But... we DID hear about it! Why else would the Red Sox and Yankees get fined? And all these players saying every team in the 2017 playoffs cheated... Ugh.
Click to expand...

Indeed... very hypocritical.

The reason we haven't "heard" about it is the publication you work for decided not to publish 18,000 stories about the other instances daily (while trying to keep the publication in business with more subscribers). They had one whistle blower and got 8 months worth of content extrapolated out for the Astros story.

Yet when it comes to a Boston video coordinator that apparently goes rogue despite working for a manager implicated in the other scandal, a sealed letter from NY, apple watches, Thera-guns in Colorado, and cameras found in LA/NYC... all of that gets pushed away because they would actually have to do some real investigative reporting and possibly burn bridges with big market teams that play nice with them.

Marshall Bryant · Jan 6, 2023

SuraGotMadHops said: ↑

LOL, we have Ken...Eric Kratz, Logan Morrison, Chris Sale, Chris Bassett, investigations into two other franchises (with punishments), the Yankee letter in FEDERAL COURT, Will Clark, the Commissioner himself who said on a damn microphone "it wasn't just Houston, we received complaints about other teams"....Ken and his sanctimonious cohorts just enjoy throwing all that into the memory hole.
Click to expand...

And that's just the stuff they couldn't keep secret.

Radricky · Jan 6, 2023

F*CK Ken Rosenthal
F*CK Carlos Beltran
That's it, that's the post

RKREBORN · Jan 8, 2023

Rosenthal going the Passan route of wanting clicks at the Astros expense. Don't feed the troll.

Invisible Fan · Jan 9, 2023

J.R. said: ↑

So here we go with my column about why I’m not including Carlos Beltrán on my 2023 Hall of Fame ballot.

…

Now, about my ballot. Beltrán is the best of the newcomers, but I voted only for six players I endorsed previously: Todd Helton, Andruw Jones, Jeff Kent, Scott Rolen, Gary Sheffield and Billy Wagner.

You’ll notice I remain a “no” on Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez. I voted in the past for players alleged or confirmed to have used performance-enhancing drugs, including Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens. I draw the line with Rodriguez and Ramirez because both were suspended after Major League Baseball established firm rules and penalties for using PEDs.

I’m also a “no” on Omar Vizquel. I voted for Vizquel initially, but MLB investigated him for allegations of physically abusing his ex-wife, suspending its probe only after he stopped working in baseball. Vizquel also reached a confidential agreement in June to settle an allegation that he sexually harassed a bat boy with autism.

Beltrán presents a new type of off-field question for voters: What to do with a player who helped create the illegal electronic sign-stealing system used by the 2017 and 2018 Astros? Major League Baseball punished the organization, manager AJ Hinch and general manager Jeff Luhnow, but not the players. Commissioner Rob Manfred said in his decision that he previously determined he would hold the manager and GM responsible for “misconduct of this kind.” The league also granted players immunity in exchange for their honest testimony.

The scandal was one of the biggest in major-league history. Some fans surely do not want to see any position player from those Astros teams enshrined in Cooperstown. I won’t go that far, even though The Athletic’s Evan Drellich and I were the reporters who initially uncovered the Astros’ misconduct. Few things in this world are black and white. That goes for Beltran’s candidacy, and the future candidacies of other position players from those Astros teams, too.

It’s quite possible I will vote for Beltrán in the future. I stay open-minded on my ballot and review it each year. I voted for Bonds and Clemens from 2015 until they ran out of eligibility in 2022, changing my mind under the belief we already had elected PED users. But while Beltrán certainly has a strong case for Cooperstown, I’m not there yet.

As I’ve acknowledged before, my logic when voting for the Hall is not always consistent. The sarcasm of my first paragraph aside, I fully expect readers to find holes in my thinking. But in the interest of transparency, here are the questions I considered when weighing Beltrán’s candidacy.

Are his numbers worthy?

Yes, though Beltrán is not the slam-dunk, first-ballot choice that say, Ken Griffey Jr. was in 2016. Beltrán is one of six players, and the only switch-hitter, to reach 2,500 hits, 300 homers and 300 stolen bases, a testament to his all-around offensive ability. Two of the others, Willie Mays and Andre Dawson, are in the Hall. Two more, Rodriguez and Bonds, would be if not for their PED issues. The other is Steve Finley.

Beltrán won three Gold Gloves in center field. He helped lead five different teams to the playoffs and was an absolute monster in the postseason, producing a .307/.412/.609 slash line with 16 homers in 256 plate appearances.

Here is what gives me a bit of pause: Beltrán’s highest MVP finish was fourth in 2006. His only other top 10 result was ninth in 2003. And his two most similar batters, according to Baseball Reference, were Dawson and Billy Williams. Both are Hall of Famers, but it took Williams six tries to get in and Dawson nine.

But is a comparison with Dawson and Williams even fair?

Not really. […]

I don’t normally withhold first-ballot votes. If I view a player as worthy, I vote for him. What is the difference here?

This is where I’m conflicted. I don’t like the message writers send when we act as if cheating, be it through PEDs or illegal sign stealing, never happened. Yet in both those examples, it can be argued that the players’ behavior reflected the sport’s culture at the time. We don’t know who exactly did what, and to what extent. So why even try to distinguish?

Manfred’s statement on the Astros adds another layer to that argument. Noting bench coach Alex Cora was an active participant in the scheme and Hinch did nothing to stop it. Manfred wrote, “I recognize that some players may have understood that their conduct was not only condoned by the club, but encouraged it.” He added that Luhnow did not forward league memoranda on the rules and did not confirm the players and field staff were in compliance.

So, if you want to make excuses for Beltrán — he didn’t know! — you can make excuses. Upon taking a job with the Yankees’ YES Network last season, Beltrán said the Astros, “felt in our hearts that we were being more efficient and smarter than any (other) team.” But he also said, “Looking back now, yes, we did cross the line … we were wrong. I wish I would’ve asked more questions about what we were doing.”

The Astros, though, were not the only club to cross the line. The fourth paragraph of our initial report in The Athletic began, “Electronic sign stealing is not a single-team issue.” We later reported the Red Sox made illegal use of their video room in 2018, after Manfred had officially warned clubs to halt such activity. The Yankees and other clubs did the same before Manfred issued his warning, partly overlapping with Beltrán’s time with the club.

To this point, however, the Astros’ trash-can-banging scheme was the most egregious team activity known to have occurred. Beltrán was a ringleader. And what is it the Hall’s rules say? “Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.”

Still, hasn’t Beltrán been punished enough?

I struggled with this question, too. Unlike many fans of other clubs, I do not believe the Astros’ players got off easy, even though they escaped formal punishment from MLB.

The 2023 season will be the fourth since Manfred’s ruling. José Altuve and Alex Bregman are the only position players remaining from the 2017 club. But rest assured, the team will continue to be jeered on the road. The legacies of Altuve, Bregman and two stars who moved on to other clubs, Carlos Correa and George Springer, will remain a subject of debate.

Prior to the scandal, Beltrán’s reputation was impeccable. Fans and a blue-ribbon panel voted him the winner of the 2013 Roberto Clemente Award, the highest honor a player can receive. Teammates revered him for his performance, his leadership, his knowledge of the game.

Yet, of all the members of the 2017 Astros, Beltrán arguably has taken the biggest hit. Retired at the time, he was the only player named in Manfred’s report. The Mets fired him as manager almost immediately, less than three months after hiring him. Only last season did he resurface as a television analyst with the Yankees.

He has suffered. All of the Astros have, and rightly so. Part of me thinks that withholding a Hall vote from Beltrán is just piling on. A bigger part of me thinks his role in the scandal cannot be ignored.

What should we do with future Astros candidates for the Hall?

This is a question voters almost certainly will face with Altuve, and possibly with Bregman, Springer and Correa, too.

None is close to the end of his career. Even Springer, the oldest at 33, figures to play at least five more years. The same is true for Altuve, who is 32. Correa and Bregman, both 28, could play 10 more seasons. Factor in the five-year waiting period from the time a player retires, and we are at least 10 years away from the discussion even taking place.

It’s possible the anger over the Astros will fade over time, particularly if information emerges implicating other teams. But even then, if any team went as far as the Astros, we’d probably know it by now. So for the 2017 and 2018 team’s future Hall of Fame candidates, the issue figures to surface at some level.

Altuve, who is 65 hits short of 2,000 and stands a reasonable chance of 3,000, will be perhaps the most interesting case. Correa has said Altuve “never cheated.” The word “never” might be an exaggeration, but the ratio of trash-can bangs to pitches for Altuve was the fewest of any player on the Astros’ 2017 roster — about 2.7 percent according to Tony Adams, an Astros fan who logged the team’s 2017 home games that were available on video, 58 of the 81. Beltrán was at 18 percent, Bregman at 16 percent, Correa at 15.4 percent, Springer at 14.4 percent.

Perhaps none of this will matter by 2033 or 2038 for the players other than Beltrán, assuming one or more of them builds a legitimate Hall of Fame argument. Beltrán is the initial test case. He figures to reach Cooperstown eventually, even if I never vote for him.

I’m guessing I will at some point. It just didn’t feel right this year. Maybe next year it will.

Click to expand...

I liked only because you posted the article for anyone curious behind the click bait title.

Forums

Carlos Beltran announces retirement

SuraGotMadHops Member

Nick Contributing Member

Marshall Bryant Member
Supporting Member

Radricky Member

RKREBORN Member

Invisible Fan Contributing Member

Share This Page

About ClutchFans

Rockets Content

Support ClutchFans!

Carlos Beltran announces retirement

SuraGotMadHops Member

Nick Contributing Member

Marshall Bryant Member Supporting Member

Radricky Member

RKREBORN Member

Invisible Fan Contributing Member

Share This Page

Marshall Bryant Member
Supporting Member