Grizzled, First, John 3:16 does not contradict the Reformed view of predestination at all. Second, the Bible makes it clear that a person controlled by the sinful nature cannot do anything pleasing to God. God commands sinners to believe, but those controlled by the sinful nature cannot believe. "The mind of sinful man is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God" (Romans 8:6-8). Romans 3:9-18 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. all have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips." "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness." "Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know." "There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Grizzled, I know that God foreordains all that comes to pass. God is Sovereign! "Indeed Herod and Pontius Pilate met together with the Gentiles and the people of Israel in this city to conspire against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed. They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen" (Acts 4:27-28). "You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives." (Gensesis 50:20). —Joseph "The LORD works out everything for his own ends—even the wicked for a day of disaster" (Proverbs 16:4). "For by now I could have stretched out my hand and struck you and your people with a plague that would have wiped you off the earth. But I have raised you up for this very purpose, that I might show you my power and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth" (Exodus 9:15-16). "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30). Westminster Confession of Faith (1646) http://www.creeds.net/Westminster/wstmnstr.htm#chap5 CHAPTER V. Of Providence I. God, the great Creator of all things, doth uphold, direct dispose, and govern all creatures, actions, and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, according to his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will, to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, goodness, and mercy. II. Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly, yet, by the same providence, he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently. If God is Sovereign, Why Do Anything? http://www.reformeddocs.org/Perman/Perman.shtml#_The_Consistency_of by Matt Perman God's sovereignty, as I am convinced the Bible teaches it, means that God has fore-ordained everything that happens. Before creation, God planned and decided ("ordained") the entire course of human history down to the smallest details. All circumstances in time are therefore the outworking of God's plan which He decreed in eternity. In light of this, a common objection is "If God has already decided what will happen, then why should I do anything? We don't control history anyway. Therefore, we can just sit back and do nothing." The objector is saying that the logical outcome of belief in the absolute sovereignty of God is what we will call "indifferent fatalism"--the view that we should do nothing since God controls everything. How are we to answer the objection of the indifferent fatalist? Why doesn't belief in God's absolute sovereignty lead to indifferent fatalism? And if God is absolutely sovereign, how can our choices have real meaning? These are very good questions that a proper understanding of God's sovereignty will answer. First we need to understand the difference between fatalism and what is called compatibilism. Compatibilism is the view that God is absolutely sovereign (as explained above) and yet our choices have real meaning and we are responsible for them. It is what I believe the Bible teaches, and is often called "Calvinism." Fatalism, on the other hand, teaches that no matter what you choose or do, things will turn out the same. For example, if it is determined that Bill will get an "F" on his test tomorrow, then no mater how hard he studies or how well he knows the material, he will fail. His choices do not really affect what will happen.[1] Compatibilism, in contrast to fatalism, says that our choices really do affect the future, and that if different choices had been made, the future would have been different. On this view, if Bill doesn't study, he will fail. But if he does study hard, then his studying will be the means that brings about a good grade. In regards to God's sovereignty, this means that God does not just ordain the ends (for example, a good grade for Bill) and then say "this will happen no matter what." No, God also ordains the means to His planned end (for example, God ordains that Bill will study as the means to the good grade that He decreed). Our decisions are each links in the chain of means ordained by God to bring about His planned ends. If different decisions had been made, the consequences would have been different. But God works to ensure that the means He has ordained will most certainly occur so that none of His purposes can fail. This makes human decisions truly significant and vital. It should now be more clear why the absolute sovereignty of God does not amount to fatalistic indifference. In short, Bill should study because that is the means that God uses to bring about his good grades. If Bill does get good grades, then his studying was just as predestined by God's plan as were the good grades. All good choices that anyone makes are ultimately caused by God; all evil choices are willingly permitted by God as a part of His plan. Furthermore, God brings about His decrees in a way that preserves our responsibility and does not violate our will (this will be explained more later).
The Consistency of Divine Sovereignty and Human Accountability http://www.reformeddocs.org/Perman/Perman.shtml#_The_Consistency_of By Matt Perman In the last article, we saw how it can be that God from all eternity ordained "whatsoever comes to pass" and yet is not "the author of sin" (Westminister Confession of Faith, 3.1). Having shown this, the issue that we will focus on in this article is how God's control over all things does not destroy human accountability. As the Westminister confession of faith goes on to say, God's sovereignty does not do violence "to the will of the creatures." Many things that we saw in the last article shed light on this issue of human accountability under the providence of God. For example, the fact that sin is not a result of God injecting evil into someone's heart, but more a matter of Him withholding the grace that would have prevented the person from sinning, is one thing that preserves our moral accountability and makes clear that God is not the author of sin. We will now look more closely at how God determines the will, which will primarily show why His sovereignty does not destroy our moral accountability, and secondarily give further vindication of the fact that God is not the author of sin. To be specific, this analysis will answer two questions for us. First, how can we be held responsible for our sinful actions when they are all predetermined by God? Second, how can our good choices be genuine when they have all been predetermined and brought about by God? The teaching of the Scriptures The first thing that I wish to point out is that the Scriptures see divine sovereignty as consistent with moral accountability. They teach both that we are accountable for our actions and that God ultimately determines our choices. As we will see in a little bit, this gives us a principle that is essential for solving the mystery. In Exodus 7:2-4 God says to Moses, "You shall speak all that I command you, and your brother Aaron shall speak to Pharaoh that he let the sons of Israel go out of his land. But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt. When Pharaoh will not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt, and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgements."[16] This is an amazing passage! In verse 2, God says that Moses and Aaron are, in God's authority, to command Pharaoh to let Israel go. But in verse 3, God says that He will harden Pharaoh's heart so that Pharaoh will not let Israel go. In verse 4, we read that God is going to judge Pharaoh and Egypt for this disobedience. Thus, the Scriptures do not see God's sovereignty over Pharaoh in hardening his heart as destroying Pharaoh's moral accountability, for God judges Pharaoh for his disobedience. We know that Pharaoh deserves this judgement because all of God's judgements and ways are just: "all His ways are just; a God of faithfulness and without injustice, righteous and upright is He" (Deuteronomy 32:4). In fact, later on in the story, Pharaoh himself acknowledges his guilt: "I have sinned this time; the Lord is the righteous one, and I and my people are the wicked ones" (Exodus 9:27). Likewise, in the book of Acts we read that the sinful acts of the Jews, Gentiles, Herod and Pontius Pilate that resulted in Christ's crucifixion, had all been predestined by God (Acts 4:28). Yet, they are considered to be morally guilty for these sins (Acts 2:23; 7:52). Jesus seems to affirm in the same sentence the sovereignty of God over His betrayal and the moral guilt of the one who betrayed Him: "For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!" (Luke 22:22). In 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 we read of a time when, to those who reject the Gospel, "God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness." Many more instances could be given, but this is sufficient to show that the Scriptures believe that God's sovereignty is consistent with the fact that He holds us all accountable for our sins.
Divine Sovereignty and Human Accountability Briefly Harmonized http://www.reformeddocs.org/Perman/Perman.shtml#_The_Consistency_of Matt Perman The two questions at the heart of the matter are this: How can God justly hold one accountable for his sins when God is the one who predestined that the sins come to pass? The question on the other side of the coin is: How can one's good choices be genuine when God is the one who predestined them? For the sake of simplicity, we will focus on the first question since the same principles apply to answering both of the questions. That the Scriptures teach that God predestines that sin comes to pass and then holds those whom He ordained to sin guilty is clear. Those who crucified Christ did so because God had predestined them to do so (Acts 4:28), yet they are considered morally guilty for their sin (Acts 2:23; 7:52). Judas betrayed Christ according to the divine plan, yet Judas was also justly guilty of sin when he did so (Luke 22:22). Pharaoh refused to obey God's command to let Israel go because God hardened his heart, and yet God responded by judging Pharaoh for his sin (Exodus 7:2-4, etc.). Joseph's brothers sinned in selling him into slavery, and yet God was the one bringing this about all along (Genesis 50:20). Many teach that harmony of these two truths is a mystery. Without claiming to know everything about the way God works, however, I think that if we take a closer look at the assumption underlying all of these Scriptures we will see that it is not a mystery. This doesn't mean that we can learn everything that there is to learn about this issue; it simply means that we can understand how it is just for God to hold us accountable for sins that He has predestined us to commit (and also how it is that our good choices are genuine when God is the One causing them). Rather than simply saying, "I don't know how God can do that, but He does and He is right in doing so," we can say, "Although I don't know everything there is to know about the issue, now I see how it is that God is able to do that and be right in doing so." The first step in solving the mystery is to make a simple inference from the Scriptures. We saw above many cases where God sovereignly ordained sin to be committed, and then regarded as morally guilty those whom He ordained to commit the sin. The implication revealed by these Scriptures is clear—a person does not need to have the power of ultimate self determination in order to be held accountable for his sins.
It bugs me that we have to personify god. God "knows" this, god "wants" that, "predestines" this, etc. I can not accept that. I don't think god makes choices or has desires. That would mean some sort of thought process, and to me, what we call "god" IS thought process. In the Bible, God changes his mind many times and even feels remorse: The LORD was grieved that he had made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain. So the LORD said, “I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth – men and animals, and creatures that move along the ground, and birds of the air – for I am grieved that I have made them.” This is all myth, "God is a metaphor for that which transcends all levels of intellectual thought. It's as simple as that." I'm tired of the concept of sin too, btw. I think in time we will come to outgrow such notions, and we will put our salvation into our owns hands. I also believe in the opposite of original sin. What we truly are is wonderful. Anger, delusion, and stupidity has tarnished us. We must find our true selves.
To Christians who disagree with the Reformed position: Please consider my argument in light of Romans 9. If Paul taught that God gives everyone the ability to believe in Christ, how would we expect someone to respond? Would he/she respond by asking the following questions? "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" No, because if Paul taught that God gives everyone the ability to believe in Christ, then a person wouldn't ask why God still blamed him/her. Now, if Paul taught that God had predestined certain individuals to salvation, how would we expect someone to respond? Would he/she respond by asking the following questions? "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" Yes! Those are exactly the questions we would expect someone to ask if Paul taught that God had predestined certain individuals to salvation. Paul anticipated those questions because he was teaching that God had predestined certain individuals to salvation, and because he was teaching that the basis for that predestination was God's grace and mercy alone, not man's desire or effort. A good teacher anticipates the questions his/her students will ask in response to what he/she is teaching. Paul was a good teacher. He anticipated the questions that would be asked in response to his teaching on predestination. Furthermore, look at how Paul answers. He emphatically affirms God's sovereignty. "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?" God predestined those—the objects of his mercy—He foreknew. He did so on the basis of His grace and mercy alone. He did so in accordance with His pleasure and will. He is Sovereign. He is the Potter. We are the clay. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort. God will have mercy on whom He wants to have mercy. By recognizing God's sovereignty, we give Him all the glory. By recognizing God's sovereignty, we recognize the true meaning of being saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. By recognizing God's sovereignty, we recognize the depth of God's love for us. He payed the price for our sins. He died for us when we hated Him. He loved us when we hated Him. "But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8). Romans 9:14-16 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. Romans 9:18-24 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding" (Ephesians 1:4-8). "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified" (Romans 8:28-30). Soli Deo Gloria.
why are you so angered by these concepts? i thought you were the open minded Buddhist...who would respect all religion. there are certain things i strongly disagree with followers of other religions on...but "tired" of their concepts? or "bugged' by them?? come on...could you be more condescending? i'm confused why you keep checking in on this thread anyway...it's a conversation about a very specific piece of doctrine...a debate in the church for centuries...behind held largely by Kate and Grizzled, two people who profess to be Christians. if you're so tired and bugged by the concepts they place their faith in, why keep coming in here?? and why contribute little comments like this along the way?? i don't understand that...has a troll-esque quality to it.
Grizzled, The fact that God has foreordained all that comes to pass does not make our choices and actions "pointless." The above articles(by Matt Perman) about God's sovereignty explain why our choices and actions aren't pointless." The posts I've directed to Moe also address your concern.
Buddhists can be annoyed and frustrated too, epically when you see these type of beliefs impair those you really care about, etc. I have seen you write many times that you are troubled by misinterpretations of the teachings of Christ, this is no different. Predestination versus free will is a universal argument and is not exclusive to any religion. Maybe I come across as troll-like because this thread is bigoted, and I find that annoying too. Too bad this thread has evolved into hadly anything more but a blible quote war. You can see where that gets you...
To non-Christians, I just want to make sure that you don't get the wrong idea from my words and/or my position. I don't believe that a non-Christian can truly seek God or have true humility before God. Having said that, I urge you to seek God and to seek him with humility. That would include learning about Christ (God the Son). That might sound confusing. I want to encourage you, though. It's true that I believe that God predestined a certain number of people to salvation, and it's true that I believe a person can only believe in Christ if God opens his/her heart first, but a non-Christian should not just wait around hoping for God to open his/her heart. The reason that I urge you to seek God and to seek him with humility is because it might be God's sovereign will that you "seek" Him before He opens your heart. All you can do is what you can. God doesn't save a person based on his/her desire or effort, but you should still try your best to seek God. The Bible states that a non-Christian (a person controlled by the sinful nature) cannot do anything pleasing to God. Still, a non-Christian can and should read the Bible, pray, ask God for faith, go to church, learn about the Christian faith, etc. That could be described as "seeking" God. The point of this post is to make clear that, even though a non-Christian cannot truly seek God, and even though a non-Christian cannot have true humility before God, I urge you to seek God and to seek him with humility. The rest of this post is for non-Christians who feel that they want to believe in Christ but can't. I don't believe that a person controlled by the sinful nature can truly want to believe in Christ. Don't worry about that, though. If you feel that you truly want to believe in Christ but can't, I would encourage you to ask God to give you faith. There are reasons to believe that Christ is who he claims to be, and you should find out what those reasons are if you haven't yet, but ultimately, believing in Christ is by definition a matter of faith. When a person believes in Christ, we say that he/she has "saving faith." Saving faith involves more than the intellect. It includes content (noticia), intellectual assent (assensus), and personal trust (fiducia). You can do many things in terms of "seeking" God and "seeking" him with "humility." One thing you can't do is make yourself believe something that you don't. I believe that saving faith in Christ is a gift from God. You can and should ask God for that gift. It might be God's sovereign will that you ask him for the gift of faith before he gives it to you. Sincerely, KateBeckinsale7
Grizzled, One verse that you raised was 2 Peter 3:9, which is one of the verses used most often against the Reformed position. "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9). "Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord" (2 Peter 1:1-2). The topic of the section in which 2 Peter 3:9 appears is the coming of Christ. I would argue that "you" refers to the elect, and I would argue that "everyone" refers to all of the elect. Peter is writing to "those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours." He is writing to those who are among the elect, and I think that, in 2 Peter 3:9, he means that the Lord is patient with the elect, wanting all of the elect to come to repentance. Notice how Peter opens his letter in 1 Peter 1:1-2. "Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance" (1 Peter 1:1-2). The NIV Study Bible states in its introduction to 2 Peter that "2 Peter was written toward the end of Peter's life (cf. 1:12-15), after he had written a prior letter (3:1) to the same readers (probably 1 Peter).
This thread is bigoted, now?? Riiiiggghhttt.... How about it's people speaking from their own understanding...their own experience..their own faith tradition? .
here's the deal, kate. does it matter? does it make the Great Commission any less of a commission? does it change how you live your life?? this is doctrine gone wild. on both sides. we have commands from Christ on how to live....there are a ton of mysteries about the nature of God.
I appreciate your post Mrs. JV. You give some concrete points to respond to and this genuinely seems like a sincere post. But note that Romans 6: 15-16 say this: 15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! 16Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey--whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? “When you offer yourselves” clearly implies choice. This is what we are doing when we humble ourselves before God and accept the gift. This whole section is about the choices one needs to make around conduct as a Christian. We are no longer under the law and this is how we can be justified (faith, not works) but this does not mean that we can willingly sin because we are now guided by the in dwelling Spirit of God. Conscious sin and other discernable sin rebel against the Spirit, but we still face temptations and we are still directed to choose to follow the Spirit: Galatians 5 1It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love. 7You were running a good race. Who cut in on you and kept you from obeying the truth? 8That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9"A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough." 10I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion will pay the penalty, whoever he may be. 11Brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! 13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[1] ; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[2] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. The Spirit and thereby everyone that it lives in is characterised by the fruits of the Spirit are “love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control” (Gal 5). This is what the Spirit calls us to be, but as I myself have demonstrated in this thread, we still struggle with this. Nonetheless, this is how anyone can tell if someone is a Christian or not, despite what they may say or do: Matt 7 21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' Note that doing the will of God is not doing good works. God wills us to live by Grace, by the Spirit which produces the fruit of the Spirit, from which good works flow. “Good works” not done out of the fruits of the Spirit can and are done by evil people for their own manipulative purposes. And even though a good tree may not produce grade A fruit regularly and not a bumper harvest it, the nature of the tree can be determined by the fruit: 15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them. Note that not only the existence of choices but the requirement to make choices about what you see and hear and how you respond to it is made clear in all of this. Yes, as guided by the Spirit, but as seen in the above passages and many many other places in the NT we are still, as Christians, required to make choices. He doesn’t need to scramble. The pull of the Spirit on the macro level will ensure that what needs to happen will happen. The choice of the individual is ultimately whether he/she chooses to be onboard with it. That we have been given that choice is the whole point of our lives on this earth. It’s what the whole Bible is about. Two things to point out here. As I believe I mentioned earlier, much about our lives is predetermined. We are born in a certain family of a certain racial background in a certain country in certain political times, etc. I think we are also given certain strengths and weaknesses and called to do certain things, although some of this can be changed by various free will factors. The point is that none of this negates the responsibility to make the choice to enter a relationship with God. You are dealt a hand that you cannot choose, but you must play the cards. Second, while Judas was clearly dealt a hand that predetermined he would play a certain role in the overall message that was being sent to the rest of mankind, there may be some room to debate whether his ultimate fate was predetermined. Did he later have a choice to repent? This is an interesting question that may not be knowable and ultimately I don’t think it’s that important. Quite clearly, I submit, the rest of us are called to make choices. He could not have, but again this does not address in any way his choice to enter a relationship with God. This latter question is, however, one that could be debated. You could make a solid argument that the call on Peter was so strong that he didn’t have a choice, that he was predetermined to play a key role in the plan that was to be a message for the rest of us, but one would have to look closely into that and I’m by no means sure that that would be the conclusion. I suggest that your last line is inconsistent with the preceding. Mary is again a very key figure whose life at least to a certain point was predetermined. Again, we are all dealt a hand and certain conditions apply to all of us. But I suspect that even Mary had her choice to make. On the sovereignty of God, it is ultimately made known to all men: Romans 1 God's Wrath Against Mankind 18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. Suggesting that God did not allow man free will to show his sovereignty is not consistent with how the Bible says he shows his sovereignty, I submit. Further, it essentially serves to limit God’s sovereignty. In fact God has so much sovereignty he has the power to grant free will. The pull of the Spirit on the macro level will ensure what shall pass, but God’s purpose is to determine which of his children will turn to their Father in submission and love to be part of that. That’s the metaphor. That’s the choice. That’s the reason for the choice. As you can see, the concept of the elect and the damned is in fundamental conflict the exact choice we are called to make. It tells you that you don’t need to make it, and that’s what makes it so damaging. Note also the word “excuse” in the above passage necessitates the existence of choice. Proof of the necessity of choice is literally everywhere in the Bible. I certainly respect the way you have framed this, and I think it shows your intentions are true. But I do submit to you that the Reform point of view, while not random, is unBiblical. I’m not saying that all of the members of the church are damned or anything like that, but what I am saying is that I believe that what this view teaches cannot be supported by the Bible and that it is in fact standing in fundamental opposition to the one main choice God calls us to make. And in that I find it a very very dangerous. If even one person out there has a choice (and I believe that we all have a choice that we must make), this tells them that they don’t. Don’t even try to make that choice because it’s pointless. It’s not there for you to choose. As someone who became a Christian as a young adult, I find that horrifying. This is a doctrine that produces no good fruit that I can see and yet it dissuades people from seeking and making the one choice they need to make. Again I appreciate your honesty, but I admit that I read this with incredulity. I don’t know of another Christian church that would take your view of predestination. Certainly it is in the extreme minority, and you’ve never encountered anyone who made a case against it?! Again I’d like to be clear. I don’t think it is wrong because it is such a minority point of view. I think it’s wrong because it’s not supported by the Bible or the Spirit, but I’m very surprised that you wouldn’t have had a serious conversation on the matter with someone who did not believe in it. While I’m not against reading commentaries as supplementary reading, I strongly recommend going to the Bible first. One of the huge red flags Kate has raised with her position is that she/he puts an interpretation ahead of the Bible. That is one of the earmarks of a cult or someone who has taken to worshiping the word of a man instead of God, in fact. A Christian church should always put the Bible first, and on this issue I recommend reading Romans. It sums up the key points and even includes the one strongly suggestive passage for predestination in this sense. With respect to supplementary writing on the issue itself, to be quite honest it’s not a position that’s been taken seriously by any church I’ve been involved with. Almost everything we talk about is about choices we make as Christians or choices about entering into a personal relationship with God, or what we can do to live out of the Spirit and hopefully be the “salt and light” we’re called to be. The Reform view of predestination has never been addressed. So most of what I've learned about the Reform point of view is from this thread and subsequent research. Here’s a reasonably good web page I found quickly. I don’t agree with everything it says but it’s a pretty good overview of the basics, I think. http://www.godandscience.org/doctrine/predestination.html
MadMax, I'd be happy to dicuss the issue with you further, though it doesn't seem like you'd be interested in doing so. I'll answer your second question first. No, it (Calvinism) doesn't make the Great Commission any less of a commission. I acknowledge that "the secret things" belong to the Lord, and that some of the things that He has revealed to us are mysteries that we cannot understand. The Trinity is a truth taught by the Bible. We know that God is one Being. We know that God is three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. We know that each of the three Persons is fully God. The Bible defines the Trinity for us in terms that we can understand. Still, the Trinity is a mystery that we can't fully comprehend. I don't think that we can fully comprehend the doctrine of predestination, either. We know that God predestined certain individuals to salvation in accordance with His pleasure and will. Beyond that, we don't know why God chose to predestine certain individuals and not others. We do know that God predestined certain individuals to salvation based on His mercy and grace alone. I acknowledge that some things in the Bible are mysterious, but we know that God doesn't contradict Himself. Either 1) God's act of regeneration causes a person's act of saving faith in Christ or 2) a person's saving faith in Christ causes God to regenerate that person. Statements 1 and 2 can't both be true. I don't think we can say that both are true and that it's just a mystery. Jesus is fully God. Jesus is fully human. Both statements are true. That's a mystery. Does it matter whether the Reformed position is correct? Yes, I believe that it does. Though I don't believe that one has to be a Calvinist to be a Christian, I do believe that the doctrines of grace go to the heart of the gospel. I believe that Calvinism recognizes the true meaning of being saved by God's grace alone. I also believe that it recognizes God's sovereignty and the depth of God's love for us, and that it gives God all the glory that He is due. Does being a Calvinist as opposed to being a non-Calvinist Christian affect the way I live my life? Yes and no. Whether the Reformed position is correct or not, God's commandments remain the same, and I still have to do my best to obey them. (Of course, I have been justified by faith alone in Christ alone, not by works.) In that sense, a Calvinist doesn't live his/her life any differently than a non-Calvinist Christian does. A Calvinist might pray differently regarding certain things, though. For example, I don't believe that it's possible for a person living according to the sinful nature to believe in Christ. Therefore, when I'm praying that a non-Christian would believe in Christ, I pray that God would save the person. In other words, I pray for God to open the person's heart to respond to the gospel of God's grace and to believe in Christ. I know that God has already predestined certain individuals to salvation, but it's none of my business who the elect are. If I believed that everyone had the ability to believe in Christ, then my prayer that a non-Christian would believe in Christ would be a little different, because I'd be asking God to allow that person to exercise the ability to believe in Christ that he/she already had. I'd know that the person had it within himself/herself to believe in Christ. Being a Calvinist as opposed to being a non-Calvinist Christian affects the way I view God, myself, Christians, and non-Christians. To me, it's giving ourselves too much credit to think that we had it within ourselves to believe in Christ when we were still living according to the sinful nature. It doesn't recognize the total depravity of a person living according to the sinful nature. The Bible is clear that such a person cannot do anything pleasing to God, and believing in Christ is pleasing to God. I also think that it's not giving God enough glory to think that we had it within ourselves to believe in Christ when we were still living according to the sinful nature. I don't think it's giving God enough glory to claim that He only made it possible for sinners to be saved. I think it's giving God all the glory that He is due to proclaim that God decided to save certain individuals and that He saved them based on His mercy and grace alone. I believe that God predestined certain individuals to salvation. I believe that He did so even though they deserved to go to hell just as much as everyone He chose not to save. God commands everyone to believe in Christ. But if it's true that God gives everyone the ability to believe in Christ, and some do and some don't, then the people who do believe in Christ deserve to go to heaven more than those who don't. Yes, they're all sinners and deserve to go to hell, but at least the ones who are going to heaven have done one thing pleasing to God—believe in Christ—that everyone else had the God-given ability to do and chose not to. (*Note to non-Christians: Just because you don't believe in Christ right now doesn't mean that you never will. I urge you to learn about Christ. Please see my post above on this page directed to non-Christians.) If a Christian believes that it's possible for a person living according to the sinful nature to believe in Christ, then that Christian believes that he/she himself/herself has done something that a non-Christian can also do, but just won't. That's inconsistent with the Bible's teaching that God predestined certain individuals to salvation based on His mercy and grace alone. Mercy is—by definition—undeserved. The command to believe in Christ goes out to everyone. I just don't believe that a person living according to the sinful nature can believe in Christ. He/she is hostile to God. He/she cannot submit to God's law, nor can he/she. He/she cannot please God. How can such a person believe in God unless God opens his/her heart to respond to the gospel of God's grace? A Calvinist believes that—with respect to logical priority—regeneration precedes saving faith. That means that the only reason a Christian responded to the gospel of God's grace was because God had mercy on him/her. There was nothing within that person that would ever have caused him/her to believe in Christ before God opened his/her heart to respond to the gospel of God's grace. The Bible states that a person living according to the sinful nature cannot please God, and I don't believe that there are any exceptions—including believing in Christ. I don't believe that a person who's dead in his/her transgressions (i.e., spiritually dead) can cause God to raise him/her to spiritual life any more than I believe that Lazarus could have caused Jesus to raise him to physical life. If you've read all the way to this point and you think that what I'm saying is reasonable, then you might be interested in reading (either again or for the first time) a post I wrote based on Romans 9. That's how I'll end this post. Thanks for taking the time to read my response to your questions.
