1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

[Official] Astros Off Season

Discussion in 'Houston Astros' started by Castor27, Nov 7, 2022.

  1. Madmanmetz

    Madmanmetz Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2012
    Messages:
    2,164
    Likes Received:
    2,592
    Time to get Korey Lee triplets.
     
    jim1961, HeyBudLetsParty and awc713 like this.
  2. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2000
    Messages:
    22,675
    Likes Received:
    12,337
    Believe it or not, Pena is better in the field than Correa. That is why they let Correa go. They knew what they had despite questionable offense. Pena got a gold glove even with lots of errors. He makes plays and gets to balls, other shortstops can't get to including Correa.
     
  3. Wulaw Horn

    Wulaw Horn Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    5,812
    Likes Received:
    7,060
    I know the numbers say that, I’m just having a hard time buying. The guys who came up with them say they can be off in a sample size of 1 year and really work better off 3 years. I need to see it again for another year before I completely buy it.
     
    everyday eddie likes this.
  4. Snake Diggit

    Snake Diggit Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    14,772
    Likes Received:
    23,997


    I wouldn’t mind Adam Frazier as a 13th position player. Also I guess the stros players weren’t very upset about Musgrove’s comments regarding his 2017 WS.
     
  5. RKREBORN

    RKREBORN Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2006
    Messages:
    10,567
    Likes Received:
    11,820
    Only Frazier and Musgrove don't have championships
     
    travfrancis and desihooper like this.
  6. htownbball

    htownbball Member

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2006
    Messages:
    1,608
    Likes Received:
    629
    How does the recent Luis Castillo extension affect Framber? He is 1 year older but also had 1 arb year left and he got 5 years $108M.

    How much are we going to pay these guys to buy out the remaining arb years? We might pay $25-30M in the FA years but the arb years will probably average out to like $15-17M over 3 years.

    If that was the case, let's say $10M, $15M, $20M, $25M, $25M, $25M over 6 years that's $120M. Maybe there's a premium to buy out his FA years applied to the arbitration years and it's $55M over that timeframe instead of $45M so $130M over 6.
     
  7. aristophanes34

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Messages:
    422
    Likes Received:
    170
    Frazier would be a decent budget get... Last year was definitely an off year for him, and he could be due a bounce back. And, yes... I think people on the board make way more of an issue about things that other players said about the scandal. I'm pretty sure behind the scenes and in the locker room none of that means much of anything.
     
  8. J.R.

    J.R. Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    113,898
    Likes Received:
    175,205
    Did they show Joe their new “real” championship ring? ;)
     
  9. IdStrosfan

    IdStrosfan Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2021
    Messages:
    8,716
    Likes Received:
    10,926
    I have not looked up the stats ( which can be picked and chosen to prove whatever your opinion is anyway)

    My eyes tell me that:

    Correa is much more sure handed, consistent, and has the better arm. He makes all the plays he should and more than a man his size should and rarely makes an error.

    Pena has incredible reaction and range. That with natural instincts help him get to many more balls in play. His glove is excellent but his arm is only good. He will make errors on occassion and I expect without Yuli at 1B he may end up a few more than last year.

    The Astros did not think Pena was better than Correa in ANY aspect except probably running speed.

    They felt he was MLB ready and would be an acceptable replacement when Correa's contract situation made it impossible to resign him and stay the course in team spending philosophy.

    But that's different than Pena being better and the team knowing he was better.
     
    everyday eddie likes this.
  10. Tomstro

    Tomstro Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2016
    Messages:
    25,619
    Likes Received:
    22,661
    but the eye test says different. Meyers was crap out there last year. Also, Jake has no arm at all.
     
  11. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    26,282
    Likes Received:
    16,613
    They tend to do a good job on most MLB players. I'd say pitchers who's xERAs are consistently lower than their FIPs are probably undervalued a little (e.g., Javier, Urquidy). Also, upper level minor leaguers, rookies values, and second year players are all over the place. For instance, if Brown starts in the 5 first turns through the rotation, his value likely doubles for the sole reason that projections don't know if he's a starter or a reliever going forward. I'm sure there are other little quirks involving players on other teams that I don't see.

    I think someone like Chas is going to have a lot of people not like BTVs. Objectively, putting up average value on peanuts for a salary over 4 years adds up to a decent chunk of surplus value. A lot of people don't like that better players that are paid for being better players don't have more surplus value.

    Just because a player has 0 trade value, does not mean a team will give away a player. Teams contending generally don't give away players that produce value, but are paid approporiately. Bad teams don't generally give away good players with 0 surplus value either. They will trade those players, pay some cash, and get prospects worth the amount of cash they are paying. There has to be a driver for teams to want to trade players (want future value, need a pitcher now). Trade value just explains how much approximately both sides need to give up when there is a driver on both sides of a deal.

    On a driver, while Chas is listed as having a lot of surplus value if he was traded, is there a driver for another to want him more than the Astros want to keep him? If the A's were a little better, he would be someone they probably like (low cost, provides some value), but probably doesn't fit their timeline now.
     
    #5651 Joe Joe, Dec 12, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2022
    Snake Diggit likes this.
  12. Nick

    Nick Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 1999
    Messages:
    50,775
    Likes Received:
    17,143
    Correa was there with them as well… since he made the most money last year, he was probably at the concessions buying the next round (or he’s taking the picture).
     
  13. Landry's Tooth

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2020
    Messages:
    4,268
    Likes Received:
    2,627


    True, but he also hit significantly worse at a much older age.

    Even Julio Lugo significantly out hit him as a rookie at the same age. Granted night and day on defense...

    Just pointing out recency bias... he didn't even have a .300 ob%.
     
  14. Landry's Tooth

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2020
    Messages:
    4,268
    Likes Received:
    2,627
    I'm fine with this:

    2B Altuve
    LF/DH Brantley/McCormick
    3B Bregman
    LF/DH Alvarez
    1B Abreu
    RF Tucker
    SS Pena
    CF Varsho
    C Vazquez

    Bench
    Hensley
    Dubon
    Gurriel
    Maldonado
    Brantley/McCormick

    Mccullers
    Valdez
    Javier
    Garcia
    Cueto
    Urquidy

    Pressly
    Montero
    Abreu
    Stanek
    Brown
    Neris

    AAA Depth
    Meyers
    Lee
    Diaz
    Martinez
    Maton
    Bielak


    I think the Cueto/Varsho/Vasquez/Gurriel additions fit under the tax.

    I suspect Perez and a couple low level guys are enough for Varsho who is part arbitration salary dump and part freeing up playing time. Perez coud step in right away as possible 3B for them.
     
    J_Hunter_1977 likes this.
  15. mikol13

    mikol13 Protector of the Realm
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2009
    Messages:
    14,313
    Likes Received:
    28,354
    Hope the guys asked Musgrove WTF was that garbage you were spewing during the postseason??
     
  16. houstonstime

    houstonstime Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2014
    Messages:
    4,638
    Likes Received:
    4,902
    The amount of times guys tagged up and took 3rd on a routine fly ball to Meyers in CF was absurd. Dude could barely get it in to 2nd…
     
  17. Joe Joe

    Joe Joe Go Stros!
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 3, 1999
    Messages:
    26,282
    Likes Received:
    16,613
  18. Snake Diggit

    Snake Diggit Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2012
    Messages:
    14,772
    Likes Received:
    23,997
    Meyers' injury in the 2021 playoffs was obviously serious and definitely affected his 2022 performance. Whether he can get all the way back to full health AND continue to develop offensively is one of the underrated storylines for the 2023 Astros. The rhetoric of Crane and other decision makers makes me think that they don't expect him to be a key player. But in mid 2021 he looked the part of a 3 win CF which is an extremely valuable piece. His arm was average to slightly above average before the injury, so if he doesn't regain all of his arm strength it will have a big impact on his defensive value.

    IF he's not going to be the everyday CF I'd almost rather him be sent down so he can play everyday in AAA and get his stock back up; at least then he still could have big trade value even if the Astros don't want him.
     
  19. Astrofan59

    Astrofan59 Member

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2014
    Messages:
    545
    Likes Received:
    544
    Then you desperately need to see an Optometrist because your eyes are lying to you
     
  20. IdStrosfan

    IdStrosfan Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2021
    Messages:
    8,716
    Likes Received:
    10,926
    I agree with you about the eye test.

    I too screamed at my TV every time a runner tagged up on a routine fly to Jake.

    BUT

    Arm:
    Jake 84.1, max 89.4
    ( 2021) 84.9, max 89.5
    Chas 84.6, max 89.5
    Dubon 89.0, max 96.1

    Chas was very marginally better than Jake in 2022, who was very marginally better than him in 2021. Both are below average.

    FYI: Dubon is above average.

    fielding:
    Jake was successful in 93% vs expected 88% for +5% and 7 outs above average.

    Chas was successful in 93% vs expected 88% for +4% ( must be rounding?) and 7 outs above average.

    Dubon was successful 87% vs expected 88% for -1% and 0 outs above average.

    reaction
    Jake -0.1 , Chas +0.7 , Dubon +0.2

    burst
    Jake +1.7 , Chas +1.5 , Dubon +0.8

    Route
    Jake +0.7 , Chas +0.4 , Dubon -0.1

    feet covered
    Jake : 37.2 = +2.3
    Chas : 36.4.= +2.6
    Dubon : 35.1 = +0.8

    What I can say is the baseball savant does verify Jake's rag arm but not poor defense, or that Chas is better.
     
    #5660 IdStrosfan, Dec 12, 2022
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2022
    houstonstime and prospecthugger like this.

Share This Page