1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Ukraine

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by NewRoxFan, Nov 25, 2018.

  1. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,856
    Well thanks for enlightening me about that I stand corrected but isn't bottom up democracy communism in a different label?
     
  2. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2000
    Messages:
    19,181
    Likes Received:
    15,315
    In practical terms, Anarchism is completely unworkable, but it is very different from Russian Soviet Communism, which Bakunin called "German Authoritarian Socialism". It's the difference between absolute vote-on-everything democracy and absolute rule monarchy.

    They overlap in theoretical beliefs about capitalism and property ownership, but that's about it.
     
  3. jiggyfly

    jiggyfly Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2015
    Messages:
    21,011
    Likes Received:
    16,856
    I know that Soviet Communism is a bastardized version, but I am talking about what communism is supposed to be.
     
    dmoneybangbang likes this.
  4. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    59,708
    Likes Received:
    132,013
    I am sure this is the case. Why would China believe that the US would hold alliances? In recent history the USA and it's allies both have decided that the economic and domestic cost of sanctions are not worth it. So far the alliance has held, but it isn't over yet. Also the fact that it is on the border of Western Europe is likely why Europe has held firm.

    Taiwan is interesting. Has the invasion of the Ukraine never happened OR had it been a Russian success quickly, I think the narrative even internationally would be very different. I think trade and some degree of tolerance internationally would have happened. At least that is my feeling.

    After the invasion of Ukraine, an invasion of Taiwan anytime soon would likely be a disaster for China. They would be further grouped with Russia. While it is true that countries are strongly in bed with China for manufacturing, that can start to change in only a few years. We have already seen some production in China pulled back.

    It is funny home things can work. Most like Xi gave some degree of support to Putin for invading Ukraine. Whether it be for geo political purposes or simply to use Russia as a test case of invasion without China paying the consequences. However, it likely was not a positive for the CCP unless the CCP decides to modify its objectives and goals, however I do not see that happening. For many cultural and historic reasons China wants and will want Taiwan.
     
  5. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    59,708
    Likes Received:
    132,013
    Thanks for pointing out the fact that the Russians used a dildo to torture the Ukrainians.
     
    Invisible Fan likes this.
  6. glynch

    glynch Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2000
    Messages:
    18,050
    Likes Received:
    3,578
    Thanks for thinking of me, Decker. I have not seen you posting much on the D and D and I am not as active.

    I think the US elite is loving this war and making a lot of money off it. I think encouraging the Ukrainians to fight a proxy war is not in their interests or in the interest of the Russian people, the Ukrainians , the Europeans as well as the American and the rest of the world. More people will probably die of starvation due to grain disruptions, than on the battle field.

    Though we in the US have virtually no skin in the game, in the long run it is not in the US interest to force Russia into a dependency on China, which will soon have a larger GDP than the US and who we cannot win an arms race with as the gap grows. Except for the Europeans and a small group of other nations the rest of the world is not supporting us and is neutral.

    Forcing the world into a new cold war with two blocks is incredibly stupid when we are going to perish if we cannot cooperate on climate change. In addition, running around the world seizing national bank accounts as we are doing with Russian, Venezuela, Afgan , Iranian or engaging in economic blockades will hasten the use of the dollar as the international reserve currency.

    We reneged on promises not to push NATO and nukes to the Russian borders as we promised Gorbachev. We could have had Russia as a partner in Europe, but we preferred the present outcome. As with Sadam, Noriega, etc. Putin was our guy )see pictures of Blair and Clinton pallying aound with Putin before he became the crazy evil guy. This war could have been avoided, but the US was determined to have Ukraine in NATO an anti-Russian alliance. See Minsk 2 which was all but agreed to by Russia, Ukraine and Germany and France, which the US opposed. In April a very similar arrangement brokered by Turkey almost ended the war in April, but the US nixed it.

    Granted Russia invaded first, but it is important to see what happened before to encourage this and what has happened since to keep there from being negotiations, which will ultimately be what happens.
     
    Deckard and Nook like this.
  7. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    59,708
    Likes Received:
    132,013
    Chomsky is nearly 100 years old and is an academic with no practical use in the world of foreign politics. He is of value in so far as understanding larger social constructs. However, his point that the USA needs to worry about global warming and not Ukraine is just worthless in a practical sense.
     
  8. dmoneybangbang

    Joined:
    May 5, 2012
    Messages:
    22,530
    Likes Received:
    14,261
    Modern Russia has been invading their neighbors since the late 90s. USSR and tsar-ist Russia also had a habit of invading their neighbors.

    Ukraine gave up their nukes and were left out of NATO and yet Russia still invaded.

    Your cause and effect is off.
     
  9. Nook

    Nook Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2008
    Messages:
    59,708
    Likes Received:
    132,013
    You lost me at it not being in the interest of the Ukrainian people to fight.

    Russia invaded the Ukraine, this is on them. They have wanted to invade for years and they finally decided to do it.

    The US can win an arms war with China and it is largely irrelevant because the no one forced Russia to be dependent on China, that is a decision that Putin and Russia made.

    I am not a fan of seizing bank accounts, and agree with you that there will be consequences in doing it.

    No one is forcing two blocs other than Russia.

    No agreement was ever made, and NATO has even stated as much. Further, there is no treaty or binding agreement or anything of the sort. The 1990 East Germany NATO treaty made NO mention of NATO not expanding East. In 1999 it expanded and has ever since. The 1997 NATO-Russian Founding Act made no reference either.

    The comments were not even made by a President, they were made by Baker in reference to German Reunification and NOT the expansion of NATO eastward. Years ago Gorbechav even said it wasn't discussed.

    Further, none of this justified Russians invasion into Ukraine.

    Yes, Russia invaded first.

    Discussions or negotiations? It is simple, Russia leaves Ukraine. Russia doesn't get a chunk of the Ukraine.
     
  10. rimbaud

    rimbaud Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 1999
    Messages:
    8,169
    Likes Received:
    676
    Well technically Marx advocated a period of massive State control that would “dissolve” at some point when we reached utopia. Bakunin said that would never work as the all-controlling State would never give up such power.

    Bottom- up democracy was more “one person, one vote” for pretty much everything - no real centralized control from the beginning. Just cooperative “government” and they never used the word communism because of the powerful State needed for such an organization. In this kind of governing structure a country such as the US couldn’t really exist as-is because it is too large for all decisions to be made for everyone. So it would be more like a bunch of free states which try to cooperate with each other with roads and mail and defense, etc. very utopian.
     
    jiggyfly likes this.
  11. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2001
    Messages:
    45,954
    Likes Received:
    28,046
    Regarding Xi, I don't think he'd invade Taiwan after his government successfully bullied its way into covering up any meaningful consensus on the origins of Covid-19.

    The world can't really pretend everything's A-OK after 2 (ongoing) years of isolation.

    America is slowly losing its military supremacy in the region, but it still has a cohort of aliances such as the 5 Eyes or it's nuclear umbrella with S. Korea and Japan (Philippines and India if necessary). All China can do is bring N. Korea in the chat, but I doubt they want Kim to open any can of worms they can't directly control but will eventually have to clean up.

    I think Xi is still on track for becoming President for life (no coup attempt :(), so a showdown could be inevitable. They'd be foolish to start something when their real estate/banking and economy is flattening like a bad soufflé.

    Invasion would either be a feather in their cap or a hail mary to prevent a popular revolt.

    At this point, they'd win just by staying silent, keeping the West's red lines on embargo controls (weapons and electronics prohibition), and buying Russia's gas at bargain rates.

    The covid stink is too strong (how they reacted during and after), and I bet average folks in many nations wouldn't mind taking China down an even lower peg.
     
    Andre0087 likes this.
  12. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,166
    Likes Received:
    48,318
    This post is largely what I was going to write in response.

    Just to emphasize the US isn’t forcing the Ukrainians to fight and the US certainly didn’t start this war. Ukraine wasn’t a NATO member When Russia invaded and the US alone couldn’t guarantee Ukraine’s admission. As we saw with Turkey’s delay of Finland and Sweden it just take one NATO country to block NATO expansion.

    Putin would’ve been a better off working with Turkey, Hungary and Poland to keep Ukraine out than invading.

    Also just to remind people keeping Ukraine out of NATO wasn’t even the sole reason Russia invaded. The month before he invaded he wrote a big Treatise talking about how Ukraine and Russia really were one people and shouldn’t be separated.
     
    #9472 rocketsjudoka, Oct 6, 2022
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2022
    dmoneybangbang, jiggyfly and Nook like this.
  13. rocketsjudoka

    rocketsjudoka Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2007
    Messages:
    58,166
    Likes Received:
    48,318
    Yes if Russia won the discussion might be different regarding Taiwan. It didn’t and that has to give Xi something to think about. I’m pretty sure Putin was not expecting such a United front from NATO and pribably believed that Russia could sieze Kyiv quickly and that some countries might just accept Russian victory. That many European nations would decide that Russian energy was more important than supporting Ukraine’s territorial integrity.

    In the same way the CCP might feel that ASEAN and other Asian countries might not want to risk their economies for Taiwan.

    Even before the invasion of Ukraine Taiwan is much harder to invade. That the Ukrainians have fought back so hard and used western weaponry so well likely is also given the CCP more pause as it shows even with strong cultural ties in soon might be very strongly resisted and Taiwan has even more advanced weapons.

    Xi did give Putin a lot rhetorical support and PRC social media has largely supported Russia. It doesn’t appear that they have given a lot of material support to Russia and how poorly that Russia has done it looks like they are backing off that. At the recent summit between them and India and he PRC didn’t mention the war and India called for peace.

    Contrary to claims that out side of the US and Europe most of the world is neutral or supports Russia that might not be the case. If anything as this war drags in support for Russia might drop.
     
    jiggyfly, Blatz and Nook like this.
  14. AroundTheWorld

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2000
    Messages:
    83,288
    Likes Received:
    62,280
    As I said.
     
  15. El_Conquistador

    El_Conquistador King of the D&D, The Legend, #1 Ranking

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2002
    Messages:
    15,503
    Likes Received:
    6,500


    Other than crashing the economy and creating both a banking and energy crisis in Europe (which will quickly find its way to our shores), WHAT THE HELL ARE WE DOING HERE? Biden, Zelensky, and Putin are marching us to the brink of literal NUCLEAR WAR. We need to find a way to end this war quickly. The US participation in this conflict is reckless stupidity at this point.
     
    basso likes this.
  16. Space Ghost

    Space Ghost Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 1999
    Messages:
    18,090
    Likes Received:
    8,535
    We are in the early days of the Covid bizarre when we were told not to wear masks because they were ineffective.

    Zelensky is becoming unhinged. Thus is why Ukraine was not allowed in NATO.
     
    basso likes this.
  17. Buck Turgidson

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2002
    Messages:
    100,220
    Likes Received:
    102,214
    TG...SG

    Yall really kind of suck.
     
  18. DaDakota

    DaDakota Balance wins
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 1999
    Messages:
    128,543
    Likes Received:
    38,769
    Hard to believe that any American would cheer for Russia.

    DD
     
  19. dc rock

    dc rock Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2001
    Messages:
    7,620
    Likes Received:
    13,373
  20. Xerobull

    Xerobull ...and I'm all out of bubblegum
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2003
    Messages:
    36,769
    Likes Received:
    35,606
    Finnish bluntness.
     
    Invisible Fan and Blatz like this.

Share This Page