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Supervillains Gather in Davos

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by MojoMan, May 25, 2022.

  1. MexAmercnMoose

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    lolque?
     
  2. TheJuice

    TheJuice Member

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    Its really cute how you think people in Ukraine dont have agency.

    Are you surprised after centuries of being dominated raped and pillage by Russia they want to join a more prosperous, healthier West instead of being Russia's b****?

    You dont understand how people think or work. Its not a video game lol
     
  3. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    Wut?
     
  4. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    The BRICS countries (Russia is the "R". Also, Brazil, India, China and South Africa) include the two most populous nations on earth, by far. Together the five nations constitute about 1/3 of the world's population. Their nations contain immense quantities of natural resources of all types and they contain vast amounts of arable, productive farmland.

    At the recently concluded annual BRICS conference, the nations eagerly announced their solidarity with each other, and not with the imaginary "rules based international order" that is the maniacally obsessive focus of the Davos crowd and the North Atlantic globalist elites. Without worldwide solidarity, and in fact submission to this order (with them dictating the rules to everyone else, while certainly not following them themselves), this really is not an idea that appears to have a firm foothold in reality.

    BRICS Summit Reaffirms That Russia Not As Isolated As NATO Suggests

    The recent BRICS summit managed to run its course this past week with very little fanfare, despite the fact that Russia is in the midst of a conflict with Ukraine that has led to a worldwide economic war. China is edging towards a potential invasion of Taiwan, and much of the planet is in the middle of a stagflationary crisis in the meantime.

    The one major takeaway from the summit was the reaffirmed stance of the BRICS that they would continue to work closely with Russia in economic terms.


    [​IMG]

    Since the beginning of the invasion of Ukraine, there has been a running narrative in the western media that sanctions and the removal of Russian access to the SWIFT network would crush the country within a few months, leaving them penniless and unable to project military power. This has not happened.

    A picture was painted by journalists and politicians of a completely isolated Russia, destroyed by a global cancel culture campaign that would de-nation them. In reality, Russian trade, specifically their oil trade, has actually expanded. Both China and India have increased their purchases of Russian oil while enjoying discounted prices. Simultaneously, Europe and the US are suffering from oil and gas inflation and the EU is cutting vital oil and gas supplies from Russia.

    Any economist with a brain and a familiarity with the BRICS could have predicted this outcome, but the bias within the mainstream media is a powerful thing. If there were any doubts that the BRICS might distance themselves from Russia, these were put to rest in the BRICS statement on the Ukraine situation. While supporting humanitarian efforts within Ukraine as well as diplomatic solutions, the BRICS member took swipes and NATO countries for opportunism and instigation. In other words, there will be no breakup with Russia and BRICS markets will continue to remain open to them.

    This means that Russia's war with Ukraine will be sustainable for many months to come, which means that sanctions and economic warfare will continue for many months to come. Supply chain disruptions will continue unabated as Russian commodities remain off the market for the west, and this will add to the already high inflation we are currently dealing with.

    Further economic escalation could even lead to BRICS allies engaging in trade warfare as well. The situation has a powderkeg potential beyond anything the world has seen in decades.
     
  5. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    The people making these decisions on behalf of the NATO countries are behaving impulsively. They do not appear to be very smart people. Of course all of this could have been easily anticipated, but that would have required thinking a bit. Which they pretty clearly are not doing very well right now.

    EU Walks Back Hard Line On Kaliningrad Standoff As Russia Places New Missiles On Baltic Coast

    Following Moscow threatening to retaliate and escalate, it seems the European Union is seeking to rapidly defuse tensions after earlier in June giving Lithuania the go-ahead to block all rail and road transit of Russian goods going to Russia's exclave of Kaliningrad. Some one million Russian citizens of Kaliningrad Oblast have been cut off from normal and vital reception of goods through neighboring EU-NATO member Lithuania since June 17 due to enforcement of EU sanctions against Moscow.

    But Reuters is reporting Wednesday that Brussels is ready to climb down quickly from its hard line sanctions enforcement stance, after last week the Kremlin warned Lithuania that "Russia will certainly respond to such hostile actions." A statement from Nikolai Patrushev, the Secretary-General of Russia's Security Council, at the time threatened: "The consequences will have a serious negative impact on the population of Lithuania." But now EU leaders are said to be seeking compromise.

    The EU is now talking sanctions exemptions rather than enforcing them over an area that will only ensure escalation with Moscow.

    European officials are in talks to exempt the area from sanctions that have so far hit industrial goods like steel and pave the way for a deal in early July if EU member Lithuania drops its reservations, the people who refused said Not to be credited because the discussions are private.

    This despite all the talk of a unified front and "resolve" to not only enforce existing anti-Russia sanctions but ramp up further punitive measures over the Ukraine invasion at both the G7 and NATO summits held this week.

    Russia has said it would for the time being ferry goods across the Baltic Sea to its territory of Kaliningrad. At the same time, Russia's military nearer to the start of the Kaliningrad 'blockade' initiated missile exercises in the Baltic Sea, which featured anti-ship missile 'live fire' against targets. The Defense Ministry even publicized and promoted footage of the threatening drills.

    And more crucially, there are emerging reports of further fresh Russian missile deployments to Kaliningrad's Baltic Sea coast. "Analysis of satellite imagery shows that Russia has now positioned advanced anti-ship missiles on the Kaliningrad coast," a fresh report in the global maritime monitoring site Naval News finds. "The systems are deployed to the Mys Taran headland, a prominent landmark mid-way along the exclave’s short coastline." According to details in the report:

    Meanwhile, there are some surprisingly blunt admissions coming out of Western officials over the Kaliningrad crisis, such as the following in Reuters:

    "We have to face reality," said one person with direct knowledge of the EU discussions, calling Kaliningrad "sacred" for Moscow.

    "(Putin) has a lot more influence than we do. It’s in our interest to find a compromise," he said, acknowledging that the eventual result might seem unfair.

    Some of the particular forms of compromise could involve freight traffic being exempted on the basis that it wouldn't count as "international" trade according to the 'letter' of EU sanctions policy (given the exclave is already Russia's), or issuing waivers on a "humanitarian" basis; however, Lithuania appears in a mood to "stand up" to Russia and not make significant concessions.

    Given the Russian escalation and possible missile build-up in the Baltic region, it is looking like goods could flow normatively to Kaliningrad within a few days, according to officials cited in Reuters.
     
  6. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Kaliningrad used to be a German exclave. The Soviets basically committed a genocide there after World War II, forcing out Germans and shipping in ethnic Russians. They wanted an ice-free Baltic port that was really Russian and not a Soviet satellite state, much as the tsar had done to russify Crimea. Given that the Baltic Sea is otherwise completely hemmed by NATO countries now, Kaliningrad has got to be a pretty important military asset.
     
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  7. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    “This is the Future of the Liberal World Order and We Have to Stand Firm” – Biden Advisor When Asked What He Would Tell Americans Who Can’t Afford High Gas Prices (VIDEO)

    Joe Biden’s Director of the National Economic Council on Thursday let the mask slip when asked what he would tell Americans who can’t afford high gas prices for years to come.

    “What do you say to those families that say, ‘listen, we can’t afford to pay $4.85 a gallon for months, if not years?’” CNN host Victor Blackwell asked Brian Deese.

    “This is about the future of the Liberal World Order and we have to stand firm.,” Biden advisor Brian Deese said.



    Earlier Thursday Joe Biden made a similar statement when a reporter asked him how long Americans should expect to pay high gas prices.

    “How long is it fair to expect American drivers and drivers around the world to pay a premium for this war?” a New York Times reporter asked Biden.

    “As long as it takes,” Biden responded. “So that Russia cannot in fact defeat Ukraine and move beyond Ukraine.”



    These people are absolutely despicable. No such world order exists, and it would be an absolute global calamity if it ever did. It is time for these people to either step aside, or be removed forcibly from the scene. They truly do appear to probably be the worst people on earth.

    And Biden is lying about this being about stopping Russia from moving beyond Ukraine. What a lying liar. The North Atlantic globalist elites imagine themselves effectively throttling Russia into a state of impotence and insignificance by expanding NATO into Ukraine. Russia will launch their nukes before they will let that happen.

    But if the North Atlantic globalist elites capitulate here, then their fantasies of world domination become much more difficult to intellectually sustain - never mind them ever actually pulling it off. The fact is that the vast majority of the world does not want them to be the dominant rulers over mankind, weird though that may sound to some of you here.

    The costs to ordinary people is enormous and for what? So that the North Atlantic globalist elites can maintain some sort of plausible justification - in their minds in any case - for their aspirations of global domination and control of all human beings on earth. These people are truly awful.
     
  8. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    From now on whenever they claim to be fighting for "democracy," substitute the phrase "Liberal world order" in place of the word "democracy" if you want to actually be able to understand what they are talking about and trying to do.

    They do not give two s__s about "democracy," by the way. Which is especially remarkable since they brand themselves as Democrats.
     
  9. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    I remember old clips where Bush Sr. mentions a New World Order that set conspiracy theorists abuzz.

    But yeah, that world order has been in place post WW2, has guaranteed mostly free shipping lanes and lesser major conflicts than the century before it.

    Can't really have it both ways...but we can try.
     
  10. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    Here is another, better written story on the Biden regime's confession that the working class is being financially devastated by inflation and high gas prices because that is the cost of bringing in the new "Liberal World Order". This is the same globalist regime being planned by the WEF crowd and which the North Atlantic globalist elites image themselves dominating ruling over, probably for millions of years to come.

    So for those of you who are still apparently stupid enough to just write this off as a "conspiracy theory," it is in fact the publicly stated policy of the United States of America as articulated by the occupants of the White House, as documented below. Video included as well.

    Biden Regime Admits On Camera: Ushering In ‘Liberal World Order’ Is More Important Than Affordable Gas

    The Biden White House admitted on Thursday that record-high gas prices are part of a broader scheme to usher in the “liberal world order” at Americans’ expense.

    On CNN, Biden’s director of the National Economic Council, Brian Deese, made clear that high gas prices are a part of the plan, as the administration promotes prohibitively expensive electric vehicles to struggling consumers.

    “What do you say to those families who say, ‘Listen, we can’t afford to pay $4.85 a gallon for months if not years. It’s just not sustainable’?” the CNN host asked.

    “What you heard from the president today was a clear articulation of the stakes,” Deese said. “This is about the future of the liberal world order and we have to stand firm.”

    Deese was referring to Joe Biden’s comments at the NATO summit in Madrid, after one reporter asked the president, “How long is it fair to expect American drivers and drivers around the world to pay that premium for this war?” in reference to the ongoing conflict in Ukraine, which only spiked prices that were already elevated long before the war started.

    “As long as it takes,” Biden said.

    Deese then highlighted the administration’s efforts to “blunt” rising gas prices, including proposals for global price caps on Russian oil and a temporary gas tax holiday. Such policy maneuvers, however, are unlikely to make a difference without more oil and gas production in the United States, operations the White House has continued to shut down.

    In May, Biden’s Department of the Interior killed plans for major oil and gas projects across the country from Alaska to the Gulf of Mexico. When the administration announced the resumption of new oil and gas leases on federal lands to comply with a court order, the White House did so with a 50 percent spike in royalties while offering only 20 percent of the land initially nominated for exploration.

    Other administration officials have left no room for doubt about their intentions, which has choked investment in the capital- and labor-intensive industry.

    “President Biden remains absolutely committed to not moving forward with additional drilling on public lands,” White House climate adviser Gina McCarthy pledged on MSNBC.

    Meanwhile, the president’s proposed break on federal gas taxes is a gimmick that will only offer more revenues for corporate sellers, who are able to pocket the savings as gas prices remain dictated by the open market and driven higher by the government-induced scarcity.

    Deese also said the White House was “engaged with the industry” to increase oil and gas supplies and bring refinery capacity back online. But as the administration shutters down oil and gas operations, Biden also shut down plans for a major refinery in the U.S. Virgin Islands two months ago. Five refineries have closed down operations since 2020, with few prospects of reopening under an administration that has followed through on its pledge to regulate the industry out of business.


    How many working class people are going to be on board with having their lives financially devastated in order to bring in the megalomaniacal "Liberal World Order" (run by the North Atlantic globalist elites and the WEF crowd? It is possible there might not even be as many as one. This is incredibly selfish and inconsiderate. At this point, the regime occupying the white house is clearly serving the interests of the globalist elites over the American people, especially those among the lower incomes and working class.

    The campaign strategies and campaign ads almost write themselves based on these clips, not just for the 2022 elections, but maybe even more so for the 2024 election.
     
  11. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    Since the attempt by NATO and the US to trigger Russia into instigating WWIII over the blockade of land routes into Kaliningrad has failed, the blockade serves no purpose, other than to substantially reduced gas shipments from Russia to the EU and especially into Germany, which is on the verge of becoming a very big problem. So the US, EU and NATO (as coordinated by the WEF and the North Atlantic globalist elites) are left frustrated and whether they realize it or not, humiliated.

    This plan, had it succeeded, would have been very possibly the most evil act carried out by human beings on earth since at least the mass starvations of the Chinese that occurred as a result of the dictates of Mao Tse Tung in 1959-1961 and more probably since the worst horrors of WWII.

    To be fair, we may be on the verge of some new mass starvations coming up in the relatively near term, which contrary to the propaganda narrative of the North Atlantic globalist elites, was very avoidable and will be largely attributable to the scorched earth blockades, embargos and the agenda to literally devastate the Russian people and to the best of their ability to cancel all things Russian, especially the import and export of goods from that country. So if that happens, that may very well transcend the mass starvations of the Chinese episode under Mao on the evil scale.

    Poland Says EU & Russia Agree They Need A Plan On Kaliningrad

    Late this week Polish Prime Minister Mateusz Morawiecki said the EU and Russia agree that they need to come up with a plan concerning the transit of goods through Lithuania to Kaliningrad, the Russian enclave on the Baltic Sea.

    "Both sides concluded that it is worth agreeing a plan that will not violate de facto implementation of the sanctions, because, frankly speaking, the Kaliningrad Oblast is a very small part of Russia," Morawiecki said.

    Lithuania recently started enforcing EU sanctions on goods traveling to Kaliningrad through its territory, angering Russia, which has warned of a response if the move is not reversed.

    Morawiecki’s comments came a day after Reuters reported that European officials are in talks on a compromise that could exempt goods traveling to Kaliningrad. The report said a deal could be reached soon if Lithuania drops its reservations, although Vilnius doesn’t want to appear like it’s making a concession to Russia.

    "Poland supports Lithuania as much as possible in its discussion together with the European Commission in the area of developing… an appropriate mechanism in the flow of goods between Kaliningrad and Russia proper," Morawiecki said.

    Publicly, Lithuanian officials have said they will stick to enforcing the restrictions on Kaliningrad. Lithuanian officials have also said that they don’t expect Russia to respond to the embargo militarily since the Baltic nation is a member of NATO.


    Lithuania is right that Russia is not going to respond militarily. But the Russians are currently responding by significantly curtailing gas exports to Germany. The Russians have the Germans by the proverbial balls. Germany is the alpha pig in the EU pig pen, and they are starting to squeal in a public and noticeable way. It is going to upset the other piggies and they are going to bolt for cover, thereby destroying EU unity on this issue (which has already been fraying) if this continues.
     
  12. dmoneybangbang

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    Interesting watching Americans root for Russian and Chinese success....
     
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  13. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    America has been infested with something across between a societal cancer and a virus, which is this insidious, evil wokesterism/climate change cult/MMT/ (modern monetary theory/sexual confusion agenda/cancel culture/etc. All of this is a based on socialist and frequently Marxist principles. It is all embraced by the WEF and the North Atlantic globalist elites. And it is not hypothetical. It is all happening right now.

    These people, including the local chapter of this group, which is the American Democrat left, are working openly, aggressively and almost frantically to try to destroy this country - and they are succeeding at that goal. Since everything they touch turns to crap, they way they are succeeding is turning our whole country against each other and turning into a pile of crap.

    You people are an enemy far more insidious, nasty, depraved and evil than the Russians, the Chinese, the radical Islamic terrorists, or any other group I can discern. You people appear to very possibly be the worst people on earth. So you do not deserve nor are your going to receive any assistance from some blind and diabolically deceitful claim to nationalistic loyalty, when you sincerely not have any legitimate such loyalty yourselves. In fact, again, you are a cancer/virus to this country and what you can expect for a response is what any cancer or virus can expect. Nothing more.
     
  14. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    This is why you aren't taken seriously, or at least one of the reasons.

    Claiming that Americans, from a different political party are more evil and insidious than Russia, China, and militant Islam, is laughable. It's also incredibly un-American.
     
  15. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    The observation of this condition is not the problem here. That you people are more evil and insidious than Russia, China and the radical Islamic terrorists, that is the problem.

    And as you people are actively destroying this country, right out in the open for all to see, in real time, you do not get to play the patriotism card. You are not patriots. Quite the opposite in fact. You are the enemies of our country.

    Our greatest threat and our greatest enemy resides not outside of America, but within it.
     
  16. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    The greater threat to destroying the country is a leader knowingly trying to stop democracy that went against him to stay in power.

    Disagreement on policy issues isn't near as big of a threat.

    It is entirely appropriate for me or anyone else to play the patriot card when arguing against someone who routes for America's adversaries over the United States.

    It is especially true when that person admittedly holds the authoritarian anti-democratic ideals over those of fellow Americans and American democracy.

    You're like the Washington Generals of this bbs.
     
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  17. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    The head of the German Federation of Trade Unions has raised the alarm that entire German industries may collapse as a result of the worsening energy crisis. To remind everyone, Germany a few years ago got so carried away with the globalist obsession with "climate change" and so-called "renewable" energy sources that it cancelled all of its nuclear power plants and announced that it was moving rapidly off of coal, with gasoline and diesel not far behind, and presumably natural gas also on the fast track to gonesville.

    It apparently came as a shock to them to discover that the realities of their energy requirements were not altered by these edicts, and in fact the difficulties of fulfilling them has continued to rudely reminded to them every winter, during which they run coal fired power plants fueled by enormous amounts of coal, because the wind and solar generation capacity is not now anywhere near able to produce the power that Germany needs, especially in the winter, when solar is much less efficient and the windmills frequently go out of service, either because of lack of wind or extreme cold.

    In other words, this virtue signaling strategy that has tried to go all in with "clean energy" only has failed, because wind and solar cannot get it done, and up until now, they have rejected nuclear as well (which would take decades to implement at this stage anyway).

    That is really quite a spectacular record of failure. But as it turns out, that was just the warm-up round. NATO has since 1992 been pushing to advance its territorial boundaries at Russian expense, and with some significant success. The Russians expressed concerns and a joint security agreement was negotiated in which NATO would refrain from trying to advance into these nations, and Russia would refrain from advancing there at the exact same time. It was a mature and reasonable agreement to make, the sort of agreement which we apparently no longer have the quality of leaders that are capable of negotiating and agreeing to such agreements.


    Fast forward to now. That agreement has been effectively incinerated by the North Atlantic globalist elites during the last couple of years (post President Trump). NATO and their related government provoked Russia to the point where they finally invaded Ukraine. Somehow, the North Atlantic globalist elites and NATO appear to have been taken by surprise by this, even though Russia has made clear their intentions to safeguard this territory (Russia actually came into existence in this area) going back to WWII.

    To finish off any pretense that NATO does not have territorial ambitions, they are moving rapidly ahead with inviting Sweden and Finland to join. Both of this actions where initiated by NATO with the purpose of provoking the Russians into instigating a military response against these nations, which Russia had previously indicated that it would do. Russia stepped back, reassessed its strategic priorities, and said ok. They let it go. the North Atlantic globalist elites were despondent and quite frustrated.

    The had already fired all of their economic nukes at the Russians, and the Russians came out the other side even stronger. They know that the only way they can defeat Russia here is with a direct military conflict between the US and Russia (his is not actually about Ukraine, that is just the location of the battlefield). That of course is the beginning of WWIII.

    These Davosian monsters actually want that. They appear for now to be committed to trying to get Russia to start it. as they do not have the political support of the people really anywhere in the West to restart the draft and start forceably inducting millions of the current Gen Z (smartphone addicted, physically unfit, mental snowflake generation - with the highest priority given to accommodating all of the gender confusions, etc.) into the military to send them over to eastern Europe so they can be killed off in vast numbers numbers. They do not want to be seen starting that. They want the Russians to do it. The Russians see what they are trying to do and are not cooperating.

    Last week. the Davosians tried to provoke Russia into starting WWIII again with the Kaliningrad stunt, which was discussed in earlier posts. Russia did not respond militarily. They responded economically by reducing the gas exports to Germany by 60%. This a response to the escalation against Russia by NATO.

    It looks like the Russians have really struck a nerve here:

    Top German Trade Union Head Warns Entire Industries May Collapse Amid Worsening Energy Crisis

    Last month, Russia reduced Nordstream natural gas flows by 60% because of an alleged disruption. German industries, heavily reliant on cheap Russian NatGas, face skyrocketing energy costs that have put many in danger of collapse.

    "Because of the NatGas bottlenecks, entire industries are in danger of permanently collapsing: aluminum, glass, the chemical industry," Yasmin Fahimi, the head of the German Federation of Trade Unions, told the newspaper Bild am Sonntag. Fahimi warned: "Such a collapse would have massive consequences for the entire economy and jobs in Germany."

    Economics Minister Robert Habeck was quoted by Bloomberg on Saturday saying the government is working to address surging energy costs for utilities and power costs for businesses and households. He warned weeks ago Germany should prepare for further cuts NatGas. Germany recently triggered the "alarm stage" of its NatGas-emergency plan to address shortages as the energy crisis in Europe's largest economy is far from over. Habeck had also likened the squeeze on Russian NatGas supplies and its damaging effects on industries to a catalyst that could spark a Lehman Brothers-like crisis.​

    Deutsche Bank's chief FX strategist George Saravelos told clients days ago he was becoming increasingly concerned about the unfolding energy crisis in Germany. Saravelos pointed out that dwindling NatGas supplies to Germany and the resulting surge in electricity prices have created massive problems for industries and utilities.

    The biggest blowup last week was German gas and power utility Uniper. Shares in the company crashed because it only received 40% of NatGas from Russia, and the rest had to be purchased in the open market (outside of long-term contracts), where prices have soared. This has created an immense strain on the utility, losing upwards of $30 million per day, or if annualized, could be an $11 billion loss. Risks are mounting of a full NatGas disruption: "Europe should be ready in case Russian gas is completely cut off," IEA head Fatih Birol recently told FT.

    Saravelos also told clients if NatGas supply woes via Nordstream aren't resolved in the coming weeks, this would lead to a broadening out of energy disruption with material upfront effects on economic growth, and of course, much higher inflation, or as he put it, "beyond the market's worries about slower global growth in recent months, what is unfolding in Europe in recent days is a fresh big negative supply shock."

    Sooner or later, Germany will learn if that's because of economic disruption, that getting virtue signaled into supporting the Ukraine war was a bad idea.


    What about the Davosian clean energy strategy? It pretty clearly does not work in the real world. It is just virtue signalling and an excuse to take over the energy industry so that they can control it. The people of Europe will revolt if they have to go through this winter with out heat and industry is shut down for lack of gas and electricity, permanently setting back if not destroying whole industries and the careers of millions of people, not to mention the sky high costs and shortages all of this is imposing on us.

    The North Atlantic globalist elites are in a tough spot. What leverage do they have that could still win the day for them, aside from a full scale war between the US and Russia? If there is anything - really - I an not currently seeing it.
     
  18. AroundTheWorld

    AroundTheWorld Insufferable 98er
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    German energy policy under Schroeder/Merkel/Scholz:

    [​IMG]
     
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  19. MojoMan

    MojoMan Member

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    The leftist leaders of these North Atlantic countries have been implementing this foolishness in all of them, including here in the US. Gasoline, diesel and electricity prices are currently so high here because the same strategy is being insidiously implemented through the federal agencies, without any actual congressionally approved law to back it up. It is not because of the war between NATO and Russian in Ukraine.
     
  20. JuanValdez

    JuanValdez Contributing Member

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    Happy independence day!

    I don't want to bang on about globalists at the moment. I think we understand I'm a globalist and you're anti- that. But, I'm curious about your feelings on what I hope is a more narrow subject, democracy. Because I notice all the people you list that I'm worse than all live in authoritarian systems. So, do you like democracy? Maybe its secondary to other considerations? Do you think their governments have legitimacy derived some other way? Maybe you don't think our democracy is real democracy?
     

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