1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Breaking 1-06-21: MAGA terrorist attack on Capitol

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by RESINator, Jan 6, 2021.

  1. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Messages:
    30,841
    Likes Received:
    14,340
    He did not enter the capitol
     
  2. Commodore

    Commodore Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2007
    Messages:
    30,841
    Likes Received:
    14,340
  3. leroy

    leroy Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2002
    Messages:
    26,277
    Likes Received:
    9,482
    Oh...well then totally cool that he assaulted officers while carrying a gun loaded with hollow point bullets.

    Cult of the Stupid.
     
  4. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2001
    Messages:
    15,052
    Likes Received:
    2,091
    Probably call the cops. That's what I did when someone was breaking into my car. Of course, my house is not a public building and there wouldn't be any reason to protest or riot inside, so it isn't a very good analogy. We have had protesters at my work of course, and they were just allowed to protest until they got bored and left.
    Allegations of racism without evidence? That sounds about par for the course.
    I'm not ignoring it at all, I have repeatedly in fact said that anyone who initiated violence should be charged for it and even that those who engaged in violence against law enforcement officers in the lawful performance of their duties should be charged, even if they were not the initiators.
    This was a riot, yes.
    People chant things without carrying it out. I would direct your attention to the chants of, "What do we want? Dead cops. When do we want it? Now." and "Pigs in a blanket. Fry 'em like bacon." Those chanters were not charged with criminal threats against law enforcement or trying to overthrow their local government, because just chanting something without taking any action to carry out what you are chanting is rather toothless.
    Again, an unrecorded statement, relayed by an FBI plant, about which we don't know the words, tone, or context is not much. According to FBI plants, some idiots in Michigan were going to blow up a bridge and kidnap the governor, only it turned out they weren't and that was a plan cooked up by the FBI's own paid informant.
    Yeah, I don't really see any danger to Congress.
    To me, the idea that this was an insurrection (where they all forgot to bring guns into the building) that was somehow meant to take over the government and result in hanging Mike Pence is unbelievable. I don't think a cartoon would have a plan that silly.
    If there is, those people should be charged.
    I believe I already said that the only video I have seen of fighting doesn't show the initiation, only ongoing.
    I never said that at all. That is a total straw man. I have said this was a riot from the very beginning.
    Actually I said Floyd would be alive if he didn't overdose on drugs and fight with the cops. He was also killed by being restrained, not shot. There wasn't even an intent to kill. All of that is manifestly true.
    Castillo was very sadly killed because the cop thought he was reaching for his gun, because he was reaching right to the area where he said he had a gun. The officer who shot him very reasonably feared imminent death or great bodily injury, which every agency and jury that reviewed his case decided. Babbitt was shot in the neck because she was climbing through a window, totally unarmed, after punching the guy that broke the window. There is no reasonable argument that Lt. Byrd reasonably feared that Babbitt was an imminent threat to cause his death or great bodily injury. So no, you both mischaracterized my arguments and failed to understand the very different circumstances of their deaths. George Floyd's death was exactly like Tony Timpa's death. Castille's death was a tragic error, similar to Daniel Shaver's death. Those are white people in the same or similar circumstances that had the same outcome and I made the same arguements. It is almost like race is irrelevant.
    No. It isn't okay. That is why I have said repeatedly that it was a riot and that anyone fighting the officers should be charged with assaulting a police officer. I also don't have a dear leader. The last presidential candidate I voted for that made it into the White House was Bush.
     
    Os Trigonum likes this.
  5. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    72,469
    Likes Received:
    110,429
    https://www.wsj.com/articles/voters...idence-11655494859?mod=hp_opin_pos_2#cxrecs_s

    Voters Elected the Jan. 6 Donald Trump
    Remember in 2016 when many said he was the wrecking ball the country needed?
    By Holman W. Jenkins, Jr.
    June 17, 2022 6:11 pm ET

    The Jan. 6 hearings probably haven’t gotten voters’ minds off inflation. If you’ve been paying attention at all, nor have they revolutionized your understanding of that day’s events notwithstanding the deluge of useful testimony that Donald Trump had no basis for his claim of a stolen election.

    Mr. Trump’s claim was indifferent to the evidence—we already knew this. In 2016, asked whether he would accept the outcome of his first race, he quipped, “If I win.” Later, his attorney general would tell the Jan. 6 committee that Mr. Trump was “detached from reality if he really believes this stuff” about the 2020 race.

    Exactly. Mr. Trump didn’t believe it or it didn’t matter if he did. He was attached to a different reality, 40 years of brand discipline: Mr. Trump doesn’t lose. Gold sprouts from his fingertips except when foiled by nefarious cheaters and corrupt incompetents.

    Mr. Trump’s authentic anger was reserved for White House underlings who forgot their job was servicing the Trump brand. His legal theory, its own originator told him, was bound to lose 9-0 before the Supreme Court. When has Mr. Trump ever won any lawsuit he was involved in? When was that even the purpose?

    I’ve found it hard to excuse Trump supporters who didn’t realize from day one “stop the steal” was a bucket-shop scam—had they understood nothing about the man they were so devoted to?

    Ditto, I thought the media coverage after the election should be a good deal more eye-rolling. Trump was being Trump (and also was being Stacey Abrams and Hillary Clinton—he hardly invented the “I wuz robbed” shtick as a means to keep oneself the center of attention after Election Day).

    Mr. Trump was the most known, understood, advertised personality ever to be elected president, a four-decade American prodigy of Barnumesque branding. The true wonderment was the Trump voter. Yes, some were ignoramuses, but many knew exactly what they were getting (and let me know they did).

    “I’m a total act and I don’t understand why people don’t get it,” Mr. Trump supposedly told Anthony Scaramucci. Many did, and were his supporters.

    In turn, the appalling wonder of Jan. 6 was the wonder of many accidental things set in motion by voters when they made Trump the 2016 GOP nominee.

    The chain of events that landed Mr. Trump in the White House, most Americans still don’t know, included a Dutch intelligence document handed to FBI chief James Comey in March 2016.

    If the Capitol Police had done their job on Jan. 6, we’d be living in a different world today and the risk of a Trump restoration would seem at least a tad less ominous.

    Or consider: If the invading Trump mob had cornered Nancy Pelosi or Mike Pence, you don’t know what would have happened. Don’t assume you do. But how different again our world might be.

    What distinguishes conspiracy theorists from the rest of us is their inability or unwillingness to believe that big consequences can flow from small, accidental, disorganized, even ludicrous causes.

    Take the irony of Democrats putting forward Rep. Adam Schiff to argue the case that Jan. 6 all unfolded according to Mr. Trump’s master plan. Mr. Schiff’s own shortfall of character—along with Mrs. Clinton’s, Mr. Comey’s and Mr. Trump’s—was a crucial contingency helping to turn the voters’ Trump experiment into the dark chapter it didn’t need to be. Democrats clearly now hope to take advantage, on Mr. Schiff’s behalf, of the psychiatric propensity known as “splitting”—the unfortunately reliable assumption that, for certain viewers, blackening Mr. Trump whitens his enemies (in the Manichaean sense).

    But we don’t live in a Manichaean world. We live in a Darwinian world. When reckless mendacity, cynicism and demagoguery paid off so handsomely for Mr. Trump, Democrats adopted them wholesale, and Mr. Schiff led the way. To me, this is still the most eye-opening revelation of the strange Trump interlude.

    Mr. Trump’s moment landed arguably because he was a parody of the flaws of our political class, and some of his prominent non-crazy supporters sincerely argued only an ultra cynic could beat the Washington cynics at their own game and move the country forward on important fronts.

    Has anything at all productive come from the experiment the electorate set in motion in 2016? Would we recognize it if it did? There may be some evidence but an instinct tells me not to bet on it until I see some “come to Jesus” willingness to face up not only to Mr. Trump’s sins but those of his enemies. That’s when I’ll start feeling optimistic about America’s ability to pull it together and rise to the challenges of the current moment.

    Appeared in the June 18, 2022, print edition.






     
  6. jo mama

    jo mama Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2002
    Messages:
    13,335
    Likes Received:
    7,408
    thats funny coming from someone who has been spending the last year and a half downplaying the significance of jan 6/trumps insurrection.
     
    Andre0087 likes this.
  7. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    72,469
    Likes Received:
    110,429
    actually I haven't commented a whole lot on the Jan 6 riots. correct me if I'm wrong
     
  8. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,710
    Likes Received:
    18,486
    As usual with this poster, willful or not, there is a lack of context that would show a clearer picture.

    He held the door open for rioters to enter the building, fought with officers who tried to prevent the crowd from entering, and when his gun fell to the ground, he ran off. He then later filed a police report and lied that his gun was stolen.
     
    No Worries and Andre0087 like this.
  9. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    72,469
    Likes Received:
    110,429
    287101471_10221821709361070_1700058766307948560_n.jpg
     
  10. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2008
    Messages:
    21,710
    Likes Received:
    18,486
    Fox News TC keeps claiming this. It’s a falsehood that has been debunked.

    https://www.statesman.com/story/new...earms-other-weapons-capitol-jan-6/7621149001/



    • Lonnie Coffman of Alabama was found with multiple weapons in his vehicle and on his person. Coffman’s truck, which he had parked in the vicinity of the Capitol on the morning of Jan. 6, was packed with weaponry, including a handgun, a rifle and a shotgun, each loaded, according to court documents. In addition, the truck held hundreds of rounds of ammunition, several large-capacity ammunition feeding devices, a crossbow with bolts, machetes, camouflage smoke devices, a stun gun and 11 Molotov cocktails. When Coffman was detained, questioned and searched, police found two more handguns on his person. None of the weapons were registered, documents state. Coffman pleaded guilty and was sentenced in April to 46 months in prison followed by three years of supervised release.
    • Guy Reffitt of Texas was charged with bringing a handgun onto Capitol grounds. Court documents showed that Reffitt, reported to be a member of the Three Percenters militia group, told his family he brought his gun with him and that he and others "stormed the Capitol." A jury found Reffitt guilty of five felony charges in March, and he remains detained pending sentencing.
    • Christopher Michael Alberts of Maryland also brought his handgun onto Capitol grounds. An officer saw that Alberts had a gun on his hip and alerted fellow officers. When Alberts tried to flee, officers detained him and recovered the loaded handgun, along with a separate magazine. He has been indicted on ten felony counts.
     
  11. deb4rockets

    deb4rockets Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2013
    Messages:
    19,455
    Likes Received:
    25,365
    People who touted the nonsense that these guys wouldn't kill anyone and weren't armed are so hell bent on defending the far right it's sickening. These types are the most dangerous threats, and to think they weren't capable and motivated to kill Pence and Pelosi isn't really thinking at all. It's just deflection from the fact that of the far right domestic terrorists are killers. In 2021 28 of the 30 domestic terrorist attack fatalities were from far-right groups.

    https://www.csis.org/analysis/pushed-extremes-domestic-terrorism-amid-polarization-and-protest
     
    No Worries likes this.
  12. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    When I read opinions like these, it really makes me wonder about conservatives and how biased they are. I get it, I'm a liberal, but I also know I can see things from the other perspective better than most. Comparing Trump to Stacey Abrams for example, who had a legitimate argument about an unfair election when a historic number of voters were purged from voter rolls right before the election by her opponent who ran the election. Clinton's claim was around Russian influence and propaganda, and was admittingly much weaker. But both of these are very different from saying fraudulent votes were cast and that people's votes shouldn't be counted, or trying to actually overturn the results of an election using false claims. To me this is like comparing loitering to trespassing, and trying to draw equivalence is disingenuous to say the least.

    In general, there's a lot of criticism of Democrats here as adopting his tactics and even being the source or inspiration for them, and that's just a very weak argument. Jan 6th is a legitimate thing. After a country that has had to suffer the GOP's faux scandals of Whitewater, Monica Lewinsky, Clinton Cash, Benghazi, and many more - all these cynical cooked up scandals as a means to tar a Clinton and help win an election, and the GOP's promise to retaliate for the Jan 6th hearing by going after Biden, Pelosi, and Schumer after they win in 2024....it's just sad to me to read a perspective that is being presented here.
     
  13. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    72,469
    Likes Received:
    110,429
    it's a view some people hold. And probably better to acknowledge that fact than to suppress it or ignore it. Ignoring Trump's appeal for example helped get Trump elected in the first place
     
  14. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    There have been multiple assassination attempts against both Dem and GOP politicians over recent years. In fact there was a shooting targeting a Dem lawmaker in KY around the same time as this plot. There was a plot uncovered earlier this year to assassinate Biden, Clinton, Obama, and others - the man was stopped at a traffic stop with weapons: https://www.wfla.com/news/national/...-traffic-stop-according-to-federal-documents/

    Why didn't this get played up? Fact is there are crazies out there who are getting inspired to do murderous things by our toxic politics. But what Trump did was vastly different. The Jan 6th people (rioters, insurrectionists, "protestors") whatever you want to call them, were not mentally ill lone gunman types but actually people who showed up to a rally and were egged on to cause trouble at the Capitol.
     
  15. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    72,469
    Likes Received:
    110,429
    on a specific point you raise: I think the comparison of Trump to Stacey Adams is not so much about the legitimacy of their respective "unfair election" claims as it is about how neither of them let the issue drop once their respective elections were decided. Each of them has beat the "unfair election" drum ever since each of them lost their elections.

    While I agree with you her claim is stronger than Trump's, that's not the only aspect of the comparison that is relevant.
     
  16. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    No one is saying it should be suppressed or even ignored, but what the goal is to put it on an equal level as a means to distort reality and that's where I take issue.
     
  17. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2007
    Messages:
    37,714
    Likes Received:
    18,912
    The other thing is that she conceded and did not try to overturn the result.
     
  18. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    72,469
    Likes Received:
    110,429
    let's see: one individual gets arrested in Iowa, a thousand miles from his intended targets, whereas the Kavanaugh assassin is 100 feet from Kavanaugh's front door. For that matter, the would-be Pence assassins were 40 feet from Pence.

    The difference between the Kavanaugh assassin and the Pence assassins, however, seems to be that the Kavanaugh assassin had a murder weapon with him. I have not seen anything that suggests that someone with a loaded firearm came within 40 feet of Pence--but I may be wrong about that, just haven't followed the specifics of that closely.
     
  19. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    72,469
    Likes Received:
    110,429
    again, I do not believe the "goal" is to put different events on "an equal level" so much as it is to highlight the inconsistencies in peoples' thinking and arguments
     
  20. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2014
    Messages:
    72,469
    Likes Received:
    110,429
    that's because she's not a moron like Trump
     

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now