My argument of is that consumption and the focus on superficial detract heavily from the focus of education. When you're at the age where you need to be in school, the only thing you can and should care about is education. When you desire and compare superficial/non essential things while in school, you looset he focus of why you're in school. Do you really believe that there isn't a major need to shift the culture inside the black community? Look at the article in this thread, it's no longer about affirmative action or quotas, "You need a philosophical discussion about what are the aims of affirmative action,'' Professor Waters said. "If it's about getting black faces at Harvard, then you're doing fine. If it's about making up for 200 to 500 years of slavery in this country and its aftermath, then you're not doing well. And if it's about having diversity that includes African-Americans from the South or from inner-city high schools, then you're not doing well, either." "This is about the kids of recent arrivals beating out the black indigenous middle-class kids," said Professor Gates, who plans to assemble a study group on the subject. "We need to learn what the immigrants' kids have so we can bottle it and sell it, because many members of the African-American community, particularly among the chronically poor, have lost that sense of purpose and values which produced our generation." I'm saying that segregation and jim crow laws have had an huge affect, and that we need to find ways to reverse it. There isn't going to be an easy fix that just comes from legislation or procedures. It will a hard process. It's not going to be just about what the gov't can do extra to help the community, it's about realizing that this world sux, our lives sux, and we live like absolute pieces of ****, now that we've established that, what can we do to change it.
I have yet to truly believe that democrats are honestly seeking solutions to these problems. It looks like they are trying to create a class of voters (dare I say "slaves") that are perpetually dependent upon them.
You know I used to think that consumption was a massive reason that many poor people were poor. I came from a very poor family that basically saved every penny so they could save enough to buy a business and grow from there on. 20 years later, I'm very glad we saved and the benefits are clear. For the last 15 years or so, I figured if you were poor, you were, for the most part, living beyond your means. Growing up, we probably had less income than many very poor people. But that meant no vacations, no gifts, no frills whatsoever. Looking back now, I think this was possible b/c my parents were immigrants and came from a country where minimal materialistic possessions was the norm. So the adjustment to having the same standard of living as in their country of origin here was not difficult. If you were born in this country and raised by people who grew up in this country, I think its a lot harder to make those sacrifices. The standard of living here is simply higher (and should be) than in 3rd world countries. As such, its a lot harder (societal pressure makes it so) to make those sacrifices I think that immigrants like my parents made. I know that when I get older, it will be very difficult for me to make financial sacrifices when it comes to my kids b/c I've grown up in a society which values current material wealth above long term wealth accumulation. An interesting analysis would be to see how the lifestyles/consumption habits of 2nd/3rd generation or so children of immigrants that live in poverty compares to other poor minotiry populations.
I'm not arguing that the ideology of consumption is not a problem with poor people in this country, materilism in this country is an issue with all classes of people. And I tend to agree with your post almost 100% Dream Sequence. I think its a separate issue. There may be some loose links between materlism in poor communities and lack of focus on education, but nothing anything substantial. The only link you make between the two problems is kids who may drop out for jobs or even worse, for criminal activity for superficial reasons. Other than that, because a kid might want a pair of Guess jeans isn't what's blocking him from getting an education in a poor home no more than it does in a wealthy home.
As someone else pointed out, most who immigrate are either not poor or already have an increased drive to succeed and find something better. Wouldn’t it be fairer to compare the ones born here in the hood (that aren’t succeeding) to the ones in your home country that choose not to immigrate? I don’t think leaving your country to find something better has anything to do with culture. All cultures have done it…hence the great melting pot we call America. I am not trying to knock your folks or you, just saying it isn’t right to say my folks left, sacrificed and made it, so the poor bastards here still struggling must be struggling for cultural reasons. I agree 100%, but that has nothing to do with culture. Black people are the only ones that leave above their means? I see it being bought into by every community in this country. The average person here has an increased standard of living when compared to others. Perfect post by Dream Sequence
Very good post Dreamsequence, I think I can agree wit everything that you've said in your post. PG and Ice - I guess my view is that being poor, means that you need to have sacrifises. While the vices of consumption is true in every communitty, but that people in poor communitty needs to realize that for their lives to be better, sacrifises, big ones, are required to be made by everyone at that economic level. While the U.S. has an overall level of living that is fairly high, it doesn't mean that every is at that level and should be living at that level when their economic condition is preventing them from doing so. Perhaps by making the comment about Chris Rock and using the black communitty as the example, I've made this topic more about race than I would like it to be. I would like to apologize for that. Reading the article in the thread, this problem is just as common for the poorer whites. While the middle class also have a problem with consumption, most can typically afford it and still be able to get things like LSAT books and graphing calculators that gives them an advantage with education. While it's unfair for the poor people that they have to make MAJOR sacrifises in order to afford those things, but I think education is an important enough thing to sacrifise for. Lastly, I think the drive to succeed is definitely a major reason why many immigrants from Asia and Africa do better overall. And I do conceed that most of that comes from people gave up everything (esp. family) to come to this country and they are compelled to either succeed themselves or help their children succeed. However that sense of urgency is what I think needs to push upon the poor communities of America. I just don't think welfare or quotas are the way to do so. I think those might be needed with some sort action to re-educate the poorer areas of America.
Poverty IMO has several components the mindset is 1 The circumstances is another the assistance is another 1st - comparing an immigrant to a person raised here in a socilogical sense is apples and oranges the mindset you talk about is fed to us here since birth infact . . over several generations breakin it is not easy but doable born into poverty here. . . and coming here into poverty are two different things by time u old enough to do much about it you have debt. . . I think most poor folx. . if you releif their debt it would be enough to get them up a bit [true .. alot of folx won't] and Government assistance the problem with welfare is there is no transistion you get a job . . u cut off. . .. If your unemployment/welfare is 360$ a week why take a job making 8$ an hour? it does not make economic sense in the short term. Esp considering now you are cut from all welfare benefits so out of that money u need a babysitter . . .transportation cost groom and clothes cost . . . yadda yadda yadda looks like u spending more to make less when u could just sit on your ass and do nothing I'm definately not against welfare and charity but i do say some major changes need to occur. Rocket River
I believe there is definitely a problem with culture. But it is about the whole US culture not just the black culture. In this country, sports, media stardom is celebrated so much that hardly anyone really focuses on the education. That is why US students are always behind Europeans and many Asians when it comes to standardized tests. How many schools you see in the US that emphasizes things that will really help students do better in schools more than sports ? Ask yourself this simple questions, why can't American teachers teach simple Math and English in grade schools? Is it really that hard to learn? Some day the US would be in major trouble when the top graduates from other countries stop coming to the US to offset the lack of qualified Americans in many of the fields (Physics, Chemistry, Math, etc.). Mark
