Who cares about the seed? Philly won 3 more games. Also, james harden played a bunch of games for philly. Maxey and harris are easily better then any denver player so ya, that team prob wins like 30 games? People don't appreciate just how horrific denver is. Without jokic, they would be drawing dead in a series vs the rockets. To me (and my opinion on this is certainly different from the majority) the MVP is an individual award, not a team award. Taking a 15 win team to 48 to me is more impressive (along with him being better in EVERY statistic that exists) is more impressive then taking a 30+ win team to 51 (while being worse in EVERY statistic that exists)
Philly won 3 more games in a tougher conference. And without Embiid, Phlly would have Curry/Drummond instead of Harden. I don't know that Tobias Harris is better than Aaron Gordon. They're definitely in the same tier. And don't discount the experience of Barton/Morris when it comes to running an offense. Sure, Maxey has looked really good at times. He's also looked really bad at times. I think you're underestimating how bad Philly would be w/o Embiid. Philly w/o Embiid isn't a 30+ win team....not even close.
Agreed with this. With the way GS's offense is constructed, Jokic has to basically Marcus Smart / Mikal Bridges on defense, while on offense, scoring as much as Embiid and playmaking as much as CP3. All that just to be competitive. Meanwhile, imagine pinning Klay in the paint for great positioning but then seeing Will Barton chuck up a 40-footer in the clutch. Or imagine 3 players on your team ballwatching while Wiggins gets the offensive rebound. Aaron Gordon showed up for game 3, but he was getting blown by all game, as well. Denver, as constructed, just cannot defend agile guards.
If healthy I think Embiid is the better player, but Jokic should be the MVP if it's based on who had the better regular season. Jokic led all candidates by a wide margin in scoring efficiency and playmaking, while Embiid had a slight lead in volume and defense Jokic's statistical performance this season was clearly the best in the league, from raw stats to bball-ref to impact +/- stats. Finishing the season as the 6th seed should certainly hurt his case, however Embiid and Giannis only finished a couple games and seeds better. If Embiid had been the 2nd seed or won close to 60 games, he would've certainly be the MVP.
i think the philly guys are far far superior to the denver guys, look how horrific they are on both offense and defense when he was out of the games this season. They would be maybe the worst offense in the league and bottom 3 or so on defense. How do you argue against every single metric that exists being in favor of jokic?
Where are people getting that the EC has been tougher than the WC, this season? I've seen this statement from 2 posters now, and I'm curious as to the reasoning. Actual question. imo Philly's team minus Embiid, is miles ahead of Denver's team without Jokic. Let's look at the immediate roster. - PG: Maxey / Milton >> Morris / Hyland / Campazzo. Campazzo barely see minutes on the floor because he's not good. Hyland is too inexperienced while Campazzo is too small. - SG: Curry / Korkmaz = Barton / Rivers. This matchup might be the most 'wash' matchup. I will say, though, I don't think Curry is as inconsistent as Barton. And Barton isn't a 'good' playmaker - I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I'd trust Curry to get a bucket more than I trust Barton, but that's just me. - Forwards: Thybulle / Harris / Danny Green >>> Gordon / Jeff Green. Harris and Gordon might be a 'wash' in your opinion, but Harris is statistically better in most categories than Gordon. And Denver could sure use someone like Thybulle, like, 3 games ago. lol. - Center: Drummond = Cousins. Offense is higher for Cousins but defense is higher for Drummond. Also a wash? It took Aaron Gordon until the very last game of the regular season to hit 15ppg - the highest ppg on that team outside of Jokic. Meanwhile, Maxey and Harris both average more than 17. If you install Embiid on the Denver roster, I would say they either do as well as they did with Jokic (48-34) or they may do slightly worse. If you install Jokic on the Philly roster, I would say they win the entire EC. tl;dr - I'm not saying Embiid-less Philly would make it to the playoffs or anything. But I think they'd be sniffing picks close to the end of the lottery. Meanwhile, a Jokic-less Denver would be in the running to draft Jabari or Chet.
Embiid won the exact same amount of games as the 2nd seed in his conference Embiid a slight lead on defense? I guess that’s what the advanced stats will say, but we all know they’re not close in that regard.
EC had 5 teams below .500…the West had 7 Clippers were the 8th seed in the West…their record would not have even qualified for the play-in tournament in the East Sixers played at a 52 win pace against the West, and would’ve had a better record if they were a WC team seeing as how they were 25-7 against teams below .500 and would’ve played more of those types of teams if they were in the West
Slight lead over the other candidates. Defensive metrics aren't great, but the sixers and nuggets defenses when both were on the floor weren't that disparate. In addition I think, Jokic actually had a better or same record than Giannis and Embiid when they all played.
An extremely scientific and unimpeachable method for rating roster strength….lol Philly WS Embiid : 12.0 Maxey : 7.3 Harris : 5.6 Thybulle : 3.7 Harden : 3.3 Curry : 2.9 Drummond : 2.9 Niang : 2.8 Green : 1.9 Milton : 1.7 Reed : 1.3 Korkmaz: 1.2 Bassey : 0.8 Next 12 total WS : 35.4 Denver WS Jokic : 15.2 Morris : 5.4 Gordon : 5.2 Green : 3.9 Barton : 3.2 Green : 2.7 Hyland : 2.4 Campazzo : 2.0 Nnaji: 1.8 Reed : 1.6 Rivers : 1.2 Forbes : 0.7 Cousins : 0.6 Next 12 total WS : 30.7 P.S. East won the inter conference belt for only the 2nd time in last 23 years with a 226-224 record.
The 76ers were 6-8 without Embiid, this season. Not quite a playoff team, but definitely not 15 win bad. If you take Jokic off the Nuggets, they are instantly the worst team in the league (considering Murray or MPJ), there's no way they could even beat the Magic or Rockets in a series. The only area I'd give Embiid the advantage is 3 point shooting and defense.
Because team record has always (except for Westbrook) been the gatekeeper. Before Westbrook, when's the last time an MVP came from a team outside the 4th seed?
Look at the standings. The West has 7 teams below .500; the East has 5. Harris plays more minutes. If you want to say that Harris is better than Gordon, that's fine, but they're definitely in the same tier. Nope, not a wash. Cousins is significantly better than Drummond. I mean, it's not even remotely close. This might be the biggest mismatch out of all the matchups. Basically, it's the gap between Maxey/Morris versus the gap between Cousins/Drummond. That's not "miles" better.
And how many of those wins were against tanking teams? How many of those wins had outlier performances by Maxey that he'd be unable to sustain on a regular basis? Denver played us without Jokic and won by 15 points. Cousins had 30 pts, 9 rebounds, and 4 assists in 24 minutes. You're really underestimating Cousins here. His problem has always been his attitude, not his talent. Yes, without Jokic, Denver would be terrible. But without Embiid, Philly would also be terrible.
First bolded point: Any given EC team plays any given WC team 30 times out of 82. The fact that there are only 5 teams below .500 in the East just means there's more parity among EC teams than there is parity, in the WC. Don't think that you can conclude, definitively, that the EC > WC just based off that. Second bolded point: How? Drummond has a better FG%, eFG%, averages more REBs, STLs, BLKs and even ASTs. The only thing Cousins has on Drummond is that Cousins averages a whole 1.1 PPG more. And we're not even talking about the defense yet, where Cousins is significantly worse than Drummond. Cousins' offensive and defensive box plus/minus is worse. His VORP is worse. His win shares (1.6) are significantly worse than Drummond's (5.1). Player comparison reference: https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm...r_id1=drumman01&p2yrfrom=2022&sum=0&request=1 If you want to believe that Philly's roster is just as bad as Denver's roster, that's fine. I just don't see how you can come to that conclusion, since, at every position, Philly has someone better than Denver.
3-5 against playoff teams, with an inactive Embiid. 7 of those games were pre-Harden, and the 1 game post-Harden trade, Harden didn't play in. Small sample size, sure, but 3-5 is not incredibly bad like an 0-8 would be.
Yes, there's more parity in the EC. That means, as a whole, the EC is stronger than the WC. In other words, it's tougher to win X number of games in the East than in the West. FG%? Drummond doesn't create his own shot. They come off offensive rebounds and set-ups by teammates. Capela had a better fg% than Jokic. Does that mean he's better at offense? Counting stats? Drummond averaged 22 mpg while Cousins averaged 14 mpg. Cousins is FAR superior to Drummond.
More parity within a certain conference only means it's harder for an EC team to win against another EC opponent, since the majority of their games are against other teams in the conference. You can't judge across conferences if you use the "X teams above/below .500" argument. If you calculate W/L between the conferences, I think EC was 224-226 or 226-224 against the WC or something like that. If the EC conference had a significantly higher win total, then I'd agree that the EC conference was tougher this year. Drummond's shots come off offensive rebounds and getting set up by his teammates? Fair. So he's better at rebounding than Cousins, which has been established, and his teammates are then also better than Cousins' teammates at setting him up for easier buckets. And yeah, counting stats. Another stat for you is that Cousins averaged 9/6 before getting waived by Milwaukee, a championship contender. If he's that good, wouldn't Milwaukee give him a contract? Then, on a Denver team absolutely struggling for depth, firepower and help for Jokic, Cousins can only average 14 minutes a game? You don't play a bad player 22 minutes a game, just like you don't play a good player only 14 minutes a game. Believe Cousins is "far" superior to Drummond if you want...doesn't change the fact that Philly's roster < Denver's roster.
