Ideal starting lineup next season..

Since you don't watch games, I'll help you.

Jalen doesn't get rebounds because he's busy destroying opponents in transition and disrupting them on their transition.

Giddey is a bad offensive player. As many points as shots, a paltry 2:1 asst:to ratio as a pure PG. He is bad on offense. That's 50% of the game he sucks at. The assists didn't fix this.

On defense, he is mediocre.

There are no number of rebounds that can change this. He can grab 12, it wouldn't matter. You just love rebounds for some reason, but they are the 2nd least important stat.

Sorry brother, you do not understand basketball. I mean that literally and not pejoratively.

 

I'm finding your rebounds don't matter to be hilarious...

The 2.8 assists in the g league for Jalen was playing off the ball too huh?

Is he off the ball because teams don't like his ball handling?

Ok, let's just save time...

You provide me with made up numbers of what you think Jalen will do years from now and then i make fun of you as a fanboy...

 

If you have a problem with the data, take it up with basketball reference...

Giddey is smLler than green and a pg? So rebounds and assists are easier?

I never said he was a good scorer captain obvious.... can't defend your position so make up someone else's...

 

Sengun
Chet
Veteran 3&D wing
Green
Porter Jr.

 

No, we are not changing the subject just because you feel like you are running out of ways to deny facts.

Whether you find it hilarious or true, rebounding is the 2nd least important stat. You are harping on about rebounding as if it's the most important metric, and diminishing offense - HALF THE GAME - as if it is not that important.

Jalen was not and is still not a great ball handler and yes that's why he handled it less. Russell Westbrook averages a near triple double and it doesn't matter, but you still don't get it. In the NBA it's about offense and defense. Everything else pales in importance.

I'm making Jalen predictions constantly, almost all of them have been right.

 

Does Chet get 30 fouls?

 

you want to post the assists stats of those players in their rookie season? Why would you expect a rookie shooting guard to have more assists than 3-10 year players in the league. What does that even prove. Green's assists numbers are pretty much in line with every guard you named in their rookie season.

Giddey is an anomaly because they have effectively to switch Shai to more off ball, and have Giddey handle the main ball handling duties.

 

it's still gnawing at me that I haven't been given parameters on how the conclusion that Green is closer to Lou Williams than Kobe Bryant is a valid statement. So I decided to provide my own parameters/data.


Per 36 numbers for Green, Williams, and Bryant in their respective rookie seasons:

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Kobe Bryant*	1996-97	18	71	6	1103	5.7	13.8	0.417	1.7	4.4	0.375	4.1	9.3	0.437	4.4	5.4	0.819	1.5	2.8	4.3	3	1.6	0.8	3.7	3.3	17.6
2	Jalen Green	2021-22	19	65	65	2062	6.8	16	0.424	2.7	7.8	0.345	4.1	8.3	0.498	3.1	3.9	0.801	0.6	3.3	3.8	3	0.8	0.3	2.3	1.8	19.3
3	Lou Williams	2005-06	19	30	0	145	5.7	12.9	0.442	0.5	2.2	0.222	5.2	10.7	0.488	2	3.2	0.615	0.7	4	4.7	2.5	1.2	0	3.2	3.2	13.9

Williams only played 30 games in his rookie year, tallying 145 total minutes whereas Bryant and Green played at least 65 games, with Green starting every game he's played. The reason why I went with Per 36 values first is because neither Kobe nor Williams saw as much action in their respective rookie seasons as Jalen did this year. Looking at the numbers, while Williams has a higher per 36 FG%, Green and Bryant shoots the 3pt ball better, has a better (even similar) FT% and higher points per game. I'm not satisfied with this data set because of the small sample size we have to work with for Williams and the fact that it really undersells what Bryant was capable of doing once he got into the starting lineup. So let's look at advanced stats:

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48	OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Kobe Bryant*	1996-97	18	71	1103	14.4	0.544	0.322	0.393	4.9	8.7	6.8	13.8	2.3	1.6	18.5	24.7	0.5	1.3	1.8	0.079	-0.2	0.1	-0.1	0.5
2	Jalen Green	2021-22	19	65	2062	12.4	0.546	0.484	0.241	1.7	10	5.8	13.1	1	0.8	11.4	23.5	0.4	0.2	0.7	0.015	-0.5	-2.3	-2.8	-0.5
3	Lou Williams	2005-06	19	30	145	9	0.485	0.173	0.25	2.4	12.9	7.7	11.6	1.8	0	18.4	22.2	-0.2	0.1	-0.1	-0.036	-4.9	-1.4	-6.3	-0.2

TS% is almost the same between Green and Bryant in their rookie campaigns. OBPM are closer between Green and Bryant than it is for Green vs Williams. DBPM for both Green and Williams are pretty bad. Looking at the overall BPM, we see that Green (-2.8) is closer to Bryant (-.1) with a difference of -2.7 than what we see with Green (-2.8) and Williams (-6.3), where a -3.5 differential exists. Still...not happy about this data set. Why? For starters, Kobe went straight to the NBA from high school so any form of higher level competition (G League, College, etc) didn't happen for him. Kind of unfair to compare his rookie year to Jalen's rookie year knowing that one guy went from Prom to NBA in a matter of months and the other had games in the G-League against grownass men. Second, Williams' small sample size again bothered me.

 

So what's next? I went and pulled data for Kobe's second season in the NBA (his age 19 year) and pulled Williams' data from his second season. Both are then used to compare to Jalen's rookie season:

Per 36 stats

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	Kobe Bryant*	1997-98	19	79	1	2056	6.8	16	0.428	1.3	3.9	0.341	5.5	12.1	0.456	6.4	8	0.794	1.4	2.9	4.2	3.5	1.3	0.7	2.7	3.2	21.4
2	Jalen Green	2021-22	19	65	65	2062	6.8	16	0.424	2.7	7.8	0.345	4.1	8.3	0.498	3.1	3.9	0.801	0.6	3.3	3.8	3	0.8	0.3	2.3	1.8	19.3
3	Lou Williams	2006-07	20	61	0	688	4.9	11	0.441	0.6	1.9	0.324	4.2	9.1	0.466	3.3	4.8	0.696	0.9	2.8	3.7	5.8	1.2	0.1	2.4	2.2	13.7

Unfortunately we can't compare non-per 36 numbers because Williams is still not playing enough minutes. But looking at the data there's a lot to like here if you're a JGOF (/sarcasm):

- Kobe and Jalen played almost the same amount of minutes. It's not a 1:1 comparison as Jalen started 65 games and Kobe still came off the bench but still not a bad start in comparing numbers.

-Their per 36 FG% , 3PT%, and FT% are virtually identical. The rebounding, assists, turnovers per game are also nearly identical. The one area that Kobe really stands out here is his FTAs. Many have rightfully suggested that we need to see Jalen at the line more as his career progresses and this is a good example of how shooting more free throws can help him go from a good to great scorer.

Advanced stats:

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	MP	PER	TS%	3PAr	FTr	ORB%	DRB%	TRB%	AST%	STL%	BLK%	TOV%	USG%	OWS	DWS	WS	WS/48	OBPM	DBPM	BPM	VORP
1	Kobe Bryant*	1997-98	19	79	2056	18.5	0.548	0.241	0.501	4.5	8.7	6.7	16	1.8	1.3	12.4	27.2	4.5	1.8	6.3	0.147	2.2	-0.8	1.4	1.8
2	Jalen Green	2021-22	19	65	2062	12.4	0.546	0.484	0.241	1.7	10	5.8	13.1	1	0.8	11.4	23.5	0.4	0.2	0.7	0.015	-0.5	-2.3	-2.8	-0.5
3	Lou Williams	2006-07	20	61	688	14.6	0.521	0.175	0.436	3	9.2	6.1	26.5	1.7	0.1	15.5	20	0.6	0.5	1.1	0.078	0.3	-0.7	-0.4	0.3

Again, we see Jalen and Kobe's TS% are closely aligned. Some critics will point out the Win Shares as a separation of Kobe and Jalen and I'll rebut by pointing out that Kobe was on a 61-win Laker team in his second season. As for BPM values both Kobe and Williams show huge improvements in their second seasons. I'm still not satisfied with this data and that's mostly due to the small sample size we see, once again, for Williams.

 

So I went in and did a different comparison:

Compare Kobe's 2nd season vs. Jalen's 1st season vs. an aggregate data set of Lou Williams first 2000 minutes in the NBA. The data on Williams would be from his first two seasons in the NBA plus 56 games in his 3rd season (total minutes: 2066). Since this data had to be manually pulled I'm not going to have advanced metrics, however, the raw numbers are seen below:

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PTS
1	Kobe Bryant*	1997-98	19	79	1	2056	391	913	0.428	75	220	0.341	363	457	0.794	79	163	242	199	74	40	157	1220
2	Jalen Green	2021-22	19	65	65	2062	389	918	0.424	153	444	0.345	177	221	0.801	32	187	219	170	43	18	130	1108
3	Lou Williams	2005-2008	21	147	0	2066	322	767	0.420	52	151	0.344	235	315	0.746	46	149	195	299	82	9	150	931

Averages are:

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PTS
1	Kobe Bryant*	1997-98	19	79	1	26	4.9	11.6	0.428	0.9	2.8	0.341	4.6	5.8	0.794	1	2.1	3.1	2.5	0.9	0.5	2	15.4
2	Jalen Green	2021-22	19	65	65	31.7	6	14.1	0.424	2.4	6.8	0.345	2.7	3.4	0.801	0.5	2.9	3.4	2.6	0.7	0.3	2	17
3	Lou Williams	2005-2008	21	147	0	14.1	2.19	5.217	42.00%	0.35	1.03	0.344	1.6	2.14	0.746	0.31	1.01	1.3	2.03	0.6	0.1	1.02	6.3

At first glance people will point and say "Look! All three are comparable! I was right!" Well, sure, but the caveat here is that we're comparing Green's rookie numbers vs. Kobe's 2nd season numbers vs. an aggregate of almost THREE years worth of data for Williams by the time he turned 21. If anything, that says moreso about how close Green, the rookie, is to Kobe, the second year phenom, than he is to Lou Williams, who has almost 150 games under his belt at this point. But, sure, let's compare the numbers.

Objectively all three players' shooting % are basically the same. The one thing I will call out is that Kobe and Green attempted more shots on a per game basis than Williams did. Same goes for 3 point attempts. Then we look at the other stats like rebounds, assists, and steals. If we do a cumulative value score for those three stats we get:

Kobe: (RPG+APG+SPG) 6.5 value
Green: 6.7 value
Williams: 3.93 value

That's a crude way to do a comparison so I'm open to thoughts/criticisms on how to do a better job with those data points.

This doesn't even get into the point production that Green (17ppg) and Kobe (15.4) are putting up in comparison to Williams' (6.3).

Objectively, just looking at the stats presented, you can put Green a bit closer to Kobe than you would to Williams. Of course I opened myself to criticism and derision because I didn't bring up defense other than the DBPM values shown above and that's fair. It's actually been a fun exercise.

 

Like 3 to 5 assists?

How many times has he done 5 assists? 4?

Where does that rank him with sgs?

You keep saying 2nd least important stat but don't explain why possessions don't matter?????

You're so smart but too dumb to explain how smart you are...

 

Here's your problem.... i never said i would expect. I'm saying you can't assume he will.

There are players at 19 or rookies who can put up 5 and 5... happens a lot of times... not a generational talent to do it.

Because i say Green has a lot of potential and is efficient at scoring I'm somehow wrong?

I'm not the one counting rebounds and assists he hasn't done.

Sue me if i live in reality...

 

It's a fair comparison or analysis. I disagree from the everything but scoring element. Kobe was a chucker for much of his career but even at 19 he was doing more than Jalen on the floor with regard to defense, hitting glass, etc. Jalen has a lot more freedom than Kobe did because his team is tanking and can throw him out there good or bad and have him work it out...

Kobe took a big jump after that and while it's reasonable to think Jalen will it's not a foregone conclusion... the nba has a history of guys who go on streaks or have their development go flat...

I just don't like the homers jinxing him as if he's already done something...

 

Jalen Green's "Whhhhoooooa"

 

Green
KPJ
Banchero/ Smith/ KMJ
Sengun/ Chet
Adams type big/ himself

 

Who was the last rookie shooting guard that put up 5 assists a game in the NBA. I literally cannot find one in the past 10 years or even longer.

also don't back out, you said Green is only good at doing one thing, and is a bad passer, rebounder, defender. When in reality every single all star scoring SG/Wing in the past 10 years averages about the same number of assists in their rookie season as Green. Go check Booker, Beal, Edwards, Derozan, Jayson Tatum, Herro, Mccollum basically your entire list.

And without fail every single person on that list managed to improve their assist numbers over their career. It's actually more difficult to find efficient scorers that end up not improving their passing after their rookie season.

Rookie SG's are asked to score first and foremost, and then worry about the rest later. The only players that don't improve their passing are players like Lou Will or Clarkson who becomes designated 6th scoring sixth man for one reason or another.

 

Who was the last rookie shooting guard?

Uh Luka off the top of my head...

I know, Luka is a generational talent... so Green isn't?

 

Penny Hardaway... Scott Skiles was their starting pg over half their season...

Tyreke Evans too...

 

Nice! I see JG earned his nickname you originally had for him back.

That double ping pong top 3 pick looks to good with Jabari and Chet. Take that one out man lol. Don’t even play with the emotions like this.

 

Wiseman
Sengun
Jabari Smith
Green
KPJ