1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Rockets open to a new range of shooting: the ‘middies’

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by a time to chill, Mar 12, 2022.

  1. futilman

    futilman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2020
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    532
    Ah yes, how could I forget completely qualitative and arbitrary factors like effects on the crowd. Feelings over facts!
     
  2. HP3

    HP3 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2018
    Messages:
    22,867
    Likes Received:
    32,132
    And I stand by that statement. Maybe the next year, it might have been important. But Harden going mid range would not have won us that game.
     
  3. kjayp

    kjayp Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,655
    Likes Received:
    7,407
    0-27 on 3s = 0 points....
    If less than HALF of those shots were 2pa... (13)
    and we hit 40% of those 2pa...
    5-13 = 10 points
    we lost by 9....


    we attempted 3470 3s that season... GSW won it all and attempted 2370....
     
    #43 kjayp, Mar 13, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2022
    hakeem94 likes this.
  4. Easy

    Easy Boban Only Fan
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2002
    Messages:
    35,054
    Likes Received:
    23,952
    If I understand the logical construct of this caveat is correct, the "or" seems to mean that you don't shoot a midrange whatsoever early in the shot clock EVEN IF IT IS WIDE OPEN. In other words, the ONLY condition for shooting midrange is (1) late in the shot clock, AND (2) uncontested.

    How is this a change? Unless the old rule was NEVER shoot a midrange EVEN IF IT IS LATE IN THE SHOT CLOCK AND YOU ARE WIDE OPEN?
     
    hakeem94 and xtruroyaltyx like this.
  5. kjayp

    kjayp Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,655
    Likes Received:
    7,407
    If folks wanna rely on the numbers - and only the numbers... we all know 3>2... but hows about we run the %s based on contested 3s and not all 3s....
    We saw how it played out... get out on the perimeter and protect the rim... they wont take the open 2pa's....
     
    xtruroyaltyx likes this.
  6. xtruroyaltyx

    xtruroyaltyx Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    10,739
    Likes Received:
    12,936
    Disagree.

    I think your mindset works great on the stat sheets but for actual basketball games it's a losing recipe unless you have 1) players that can shoot and hit threes under any circumstances (Curry Klay) 2) players like Gianni's or prime Lebron that can get to the rim at will and finish over anyone in the league. If you are not that, then you need to be more well rounded as a scorer and a team.

    IF that's the case, then of course....do what you do.


    There is a reason that a terrible three point shooter like Sengun still gets players to bite on his 3 point pump fakes. Opposing players know his percentage. But in a game it's just human nature to react in some way to another players action.

    To your point about the Rockets players or anyone else not being efficient at two's it's irrelevant. When you miss 20+ threes in a row because analytics says those are the best shots you've gone full r****d.

    Maybe if they had even attempted some middies it would have opened up the offense, gotten a player in rythm. Hell, if if they had actually hit some two pointers...maybe...just maybe that keeps the score board moving enough to win.
     
    hakeem94 likes this.
  7. Swapshop

    Swapshop Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2016
    Messages:
    3,733
    Likes Received:
    4,423
    I can believe it. Silas sucks.
     
    hakeem94 likes this.
  8. xtruroyaltyx

    xtruroyaltyx Member

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2011
    Messages:
    10,739
    Likes Received:
    12,936
    Another flaw with the stats on midrange for those past rockets teams is that they mostly practiced and took threes.

    When you focus so heavily on that in practice and in games and then you and then you try to take a hurried one at the end of the shot clock because you were forced to, that's going to skew the percentages.

    But when it's a part of your game plan and you're taking them in rythm when they are given to you you'll probably hit more of them.
     
    hakeem94 likes this.
  9. hakeem94

    hakeem94 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2016
    Messages:
    30,803
    Likes Received:
    41,420
    THANK YOU!
    BTW
    i think that your info that suns, the best team in nba is 26th in the 3 points attempts deserves its own thread....
     
    kjayp likes this.
  10. Reeko

    Reeko Member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2017
    Messages:
    45,462
    Likes Received:
    127,163
    only players on past Rockets teams I wanted shooting midrange where CP3 and Harden…CP3 was missed in game 7

    refs also rigged the game

    We can talk about Harden shooting midrange in a game we lost by 9, but not even mention that the refs took away 10 potential points on blatant fouls and a 4 point play they took away?

    C-Webb knew what was up when he was calling the game…even Reggie Miller had to comment on the rigging he was witnessing
     
    TriumVirate and i3artow i3aller like this.
  11. hakeem94

    hakeem94 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2016
    Messages:
    30,803
    Likes Received:
    41,420
    thanx!
    also that is why rockets 3% is also never good ....your nervous system needs feedback from taking shots all over the court in order to keep your aiming mechanism updated, adjusted and precise at all times...instead most of the players keep getting feedback from just one or 2 spots on the court and thus their aim is less accurate
     
  12. futilman

    futilman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2020
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    532
    To be clear, I'm not saying this current team should go only 3s and layups the way our Harden/CP teams did. I'm just saying it was a good strategy for that team because that team was built for it. This one is not. I think coming one hamstring injury away from beating the best team ever is pretty strong evidence in my favor.
     
  13. futilman

    futilman Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2020
    Messages:
    215
    Likes Received:
    532

    It is not human nature to just react to another players action if that action sucks. For example, why do teams leave Westbrook open for 3s? People respect Alpi more because he's relatively new to the league and a bit of an unknown. If he shoots 25% for a couple seasons, he will be left alone.

    We shot 20 3s in a row because that is the way we played all year on the backs of Harden and CP elite mid range. Once CP left, you can't expect 3 point specialists to step in and pick up where CP left off. He's one of the greatest mid range shooters ever.

    Again, we were a CP hamstring away from winning it all. Our system worked to perfection with a full strength team. CP just wasn't there at the most important moment.
     
  14. kjayp

    kjayp Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2006
    Messages:
    8,655
    Likes Received:
    7,407
    Reasonable assumption... but imo... the rigid fashion in which we ran the gameplan under DM/MDA cost us a championship - maybe 2....
    I mean 0-27... if MDA hadnt been so freaking stubborn with wanting 40+ or 50+ 3s a game... and we had accepted what wasnt working that night and made the right adjustment... maybe the refs woulda still screwed us - but at least we wouldnt be the boobs that went 0-27... lol

    I do believe that forcing the other team to cover that entire end of the court is the best strategy... if you allow a team to only defend the perimeter and the rim it makes the defenses life much easier....

    I just think there are so many variables at play within every game... and then you have defensive adjustments being made throughout... that a team has to be willing to do whatever it takes - and not just rely on a general statistical analysis - and trust for the percentages to eventually break in their favor... 'take what the defense gives you' 'feed the hot hand' 'run the same play until they prove they can stop it...' etc...
     
  15. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    5,556
    Likes Received:
    4,142
    That's simply not true.

    Here's Harden's midrange shooting during his 3 years in OKC:

    2010 38.6% on 1.5 attempts per game.
    2011 40.2% on 1.2 attempts per game.
    2012 40.0% on 1.0 attempts per game.

    He was never efficient from midrange and certainly not "unstoppable". He also just didn't shoot a whole lot of them. He didn't even average 1 make per game from midrange.

    Here's his midrange shooting in Houston:

    2013 33.5% on 2.8 attempts per game
    2014 40.6% on 3.1 attempts per game
    2015 37.3% on 3.4 attempts per game
    2016 40.5% on 3.9 attempts per game
    2017 41.1% on 2.0 attempts per game
    2018 39.1% on 1.8 attempts per game
    2019 42.0% on 1.0 attempts per game
    2020 50.0% on 0.3 attempts per game

    As you can see, he actually shot much more midrange in Houston than in OKC. In 6 of his 8 full seasons in Houston he attempted more midrange shots per game than he ever did in OKC.

    As others have stated, the idea is to take efficient shots. If you can shoot midrange efficiently, the Rockets had no problem with a player shooting them. It's just that almost nobody shoots midrange efficiently. This season there's a grand total of 6 players shooting 50% or more from midrange ( Durant, CP3, Trae Young, Seth Curry, Jrue Holiday and Jokic).

    One of Harden's greatest skills is that he can create open shots. That's the reason that we could hang with the Warriors even though they were much better shooters. It's was because we could always generate many more open 3s and we shot well enough that it was a big advantage even though we weren't an elite shooting team. We didn't lose the 0-27 game because we couldn't get open shots. We got bunches of open shots, we just couldn't shoot that day. In that particular game, we got 16 open 3s ( no defender within 4-6 ft) but we shot a putrid 1-16 on those open looks. Further, we got 14 wide open 3s (closest defender more than 6 feet away) but still only shot 4-14 on those 3s where were were basically unguarded. 30 open 3s is a huge number and that certainly wasn't our problem. The fact that we couldn't throw it in the ocean that day was the issue - i.e. going 5 - 30 on open 3s.

    That season, everyone other than CP3 averaged 39% from midrange. If we'd attempted more midrange that game, would we have shot close to our season average from midrange? There's no way to know, but I'd think that on a day where you're historically bad from behind the arc and only shoot 59.1% from the free throw line you likely aren't going to shoot well from anywhere other than right at the rim.
     
    HI Mana, jordnnnn and HP3 like this.
  16. hakeem94

    hakeem94 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2016
    Messages:
    30,803
    Likes Received:
    41,420
    Hey scientist!
    STOP PRETENDING THERES ALWAYS A 3 PT SHOT AVAILABLE....
    stop pretending you have a choice not to take the midrange
    you simply dont have that choice...


    BECAUSE if opponents knows you neva gona shot midrange they gona leave that entire area of the floor open, run you off the 3 pt line and park the rim protector under the rim(sound familiar?)

    so youll have to take huge amount shots you were not even taking the entire year because they were 'inneficient' ....either that or the logo shots is all that youll get

    in the big picture midrange is efficient because it increases your overall efficiency by makin you less predicatble and more versatile ie less susceptible for gameplanning


    BACK TO THE LAB NOW!

    trying to take only 'efficient' shots is like never going to a restaurant or coffee shop because its much cheaper to eat and drink only at home...ITS CALLED PENNY-PINCHING AND ITS NOT EFFICIENT

     
  17. hakeem94

    hakeem94 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2016
    Messages:
    30,803
    Likes Received:
    41,420
    TOREY CRAIG
    a jrue holiday brother
    elfrid payton
    landry shamet
    jay crowder
    cameron payne
    ayton

    all these people are shooting midrange...they are not even good at midrange let alone elite

    1st place in the league by far AND ITS NOT EVEN CLOSE

    THIS IS THE TRUE SPACING no stone left unturned no spot on the floor that you dont have to guard

    compare it to 2018 rockets where you didnt have to guard 3/4 of the halfcourt because it was mostly 3s and layups except for cp3
     
  18. MorningZippo

    MorningZippo Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2010
    Messages:
    3,229
    Likes Received:
    2,494
    If Harden had taken midrange jumpers, he would have been significantly worse on offense.

    Jalen Green isn't James Harden, and clearly needs the midrange jumper to open up the rest of his game.

    Next.
     
  19. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2010
    Messages:
    47,151
    Likes Received:
    35,984
    Disagree. His scoring efficiency dropped from reg season to playoffs more so than other superstar players. A large part of that was having no flexibility and having a very predictable offense.
     
  20. aelliott

    aelliott Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 1999
    Messages:
    5,556
    Likes Received:
    4,142
    So where were the games when the Harden Rockets couldn't get open 3s? Even in the infamous 0-27 game the Rockets got 30 open 3s. That's a huge number. Please point out the games where the Harden Rockets were unable to generate open 3s?


    Do you really believe that it's that easy to stop a team from shooting 3s and also stop them from driving to the hoop? If it were that simple then every team in the NBA would do that and force teams to shoot exclusively midrange. If a defense could do that then they'd be the greatest defense in history.

    That's the whole reason that the current NBA uses spacing and 3 point shooting. It makes it impossible to do what you are describing.

    Think about it , Phoenix was the best mid-range shooting team in last year's playoffs at 44.8%. If it were possible to simply take away 3s and shots at the hoop then teams would gladly do that and allow them to shoot all of the midrange that they want. Phoenix took 85.8 shots per game in last years playoffs. If you could hold them to 44.8% on all two point shots they'd only be scoring 76.88 pts/game. If it were possible EVERY team would be doing it already.

    Does it?

    In last years playoffs here's the teams that took the most midrange and how efficient they were:
    1. Washington 1st in midrange attempts, 13th (out of 16) in efficiency.
    2. Phoenix 2nd in midrange attempts, 10th (out of 16) in efficiency.
    3. NYK 3rd in midrange attempts 15th (out of 16) in efficiency.
    4. MIA 4th in midrange attempts 16th (out of 16) in efficiency.

    So the teams who shot the most midrange in last years playoffs were among the least efficient offenses among the 16 playoff teams.

    On the flip side, here's the most efficient offenses from last years playoffs and how they ranked in midrange attempts:
    1. Portland 1st in efficiency, 11th (out of 16) in mid range attempts
    2. Utah 2nd in efficiency, 16th (out of 16) in mid range attempts
    3. LAC 3rd in efficiency, 12th (out of 16) in mid range attempts
    4. Nuggets 4th in efficiency, 9th (out of 16) in mid range attempts

    So the most efficient teams in last years playoffs were at the bottom of mid range attempts.

    Mid range shots make teams less efficient NOT more efficient.

    That's a horrible analogy and it's non-sensical. Eating and drinking at home is less expensive that eating at a restaurant. Does anyone argue with that? People don't do it all the time because they want some variety and are willing to pay for it. But from simple cost savings (as your analogy states) perspective you're never going to save money eating at a restaurant. People want to treat themselves every so often so they pay more to go eat at a restaurant. NBA teams aren't going to shoot midrange just because they are bored with being uber efficient.

    Your basic argument is based on faulty premises:

    1. Teams ( specifically the Rockets) are being stopped from taking open 3 point shots. As I asked above, can you show me any case of the Harden Rockets not being able to get open 3s?

    2. Teams can take away both 3 point attempts and shots at the rim. Again, show me any team who's been able to do that.

    3. Mid range makes all other shots more effective and opens up other opportunities. As I showed above, midrange makes you less efficient, not more efficient.

    As for other shot opportunities, the current Rockets are dead last in the league in midrange attempts yet they still get more open 3 point shots than the Phoenix Suns who are #2 in the league in midrange attempts.
     
    hakeem94 and jordnnnn like this.

Share This Page

  • About ClutchFans

    Since 1996, ClutchFans has been loud and proud covering the Houston Rockets, helping set an industry standard for team fan sites. The forums have been a home for Houston sports fans as well as basketball fanatics around the globe.

  • Support ClutchFans!

    If you find that ClutchFans is a valuable resource for you, please consider becoming a Supporting Member. Supporting Members can upload photos and attachments directly to their posts, customize their user title and more. Gold Supporters see zero ads!


    Upgrade Now