I didn't forget. Westbrook was the epitome of empty stats. Giddey can already run an offense better than Westbrook ever could. The only thing Westbrook is clearly better than Giddey is the explosiveness getting to the basket. Giddey will never be as fast as Westbrook. But he has the IQ to do things Westbrook could not do. Don't forget, Westbrook's earlier career was covered by Durant. Giddey's best teammate is Shai who is nowhere close to Durant's level. It is very likely that his shot will improve. How much he improve will determine whether he will be a star or just a solid PG.
I really appreciate this post and the stats you provided. No arguments on contested rebounds, I never argued about his rebounding. You showed that he is roughly in line with where he should be in terms of potential assist per touch, 23rd in potential assists while 19th in touches, not particularly spectacular. The part you left out is that he is the second youngest player in the entire league and only player at that age playing significant minutes. To Jalen’s credit he is also one of the 10 youngest players in the league, however, the one thing he does, empty calorie scoring as I put it, he has been atrociously inefficient at for the season. (Since you used season numbers for Giddey’s numbers, not just his best 12 game stretch)
I gotta say that his numbers are pretty impressive given his lack of time with ball in his hands. I'd love to see the possession time comparison with he and his fellow rooks. It is kind of refreshing that he gives up the ball pretty quick if he doesn't have the clear play. Maybe I just got tired of watching James play with the ball for so many years.
Ok, Green stans obviously have low bbiq to begin with for them to have wanted him over Mobley, but I didn’t expect this level of dense. Let me slow it down for you. I never said anything about Giddey’s scoring efficiency. I admit that Green is a more efficient scorer than Giddey, shot difficulty taken into account. What you guys don’t understand, and Green probably doesn’t understand either given his low bbiq, is that scoring efficiency is not the most important thing on offense, the most important thing is how you impact your TEAM’S offense overall. Scoring efficiently yourself certainly helps. But playmakers who create great scoring opportunities for their teammates can have an even larger impact on the team’s offense than someone taking wide open shots that any other player can also make. Guys like Rubio, Lonzo, Simmons may not score particularly efficiently but they have a positive impact on the offense anyway through their playmaking. Green is a more efficient scorer than Giddey. Giddey has a much more positive impact on the team’s offense than Green looking at any team offensive advanced stat known to man. Giddey is the much better offensive player, because your team scoring (yourself included) is the name of the game.
Wait were you the guy who hated Harden? Who ran the team AND scored himself at supreme efficiency, the pinnacle of what you want on a team offensively. Talk about low bbiq in these stans.
You are putting way too much effort into hating a player that has not even completed a whole season in The NBA to defend another player who has not even completed a whole season in The NBA.... The league is way too unpredictable and this thread could very well make you look stupid AF in a very short period....You should reconsider this hate train you keeping riding 100mph, seriously....
Why does his age matter? There's an 8 months difference between him and Green. Kids in school born in February don't learn more than kids in school born in October. What matters is Giddey's amount of touches to his offensive contribution is the worse in the league. For the amount of touches he gets, he does basically nothing with it. Here's a more horrifying stat, touches also include backcourt touches, so players bringing the ball up also counts as touches and it can unfairly make them seem like they are more involved than they really are. For example. James Harden is 2nd in the league in touches, but not even top 50 in the league in front court touches. Giddey is 19th in the league in touches, and 19th overall in the league in front court touches. That's more than Harden and Morant. In addition, before this season, the Rockets would trade anyone on this team for Lu Dortz or SGA. However, SGA's scoring efficiency has plummeted entirely this season. His TS% from 55% to 57% to 62% and suddenly all the way down to a career worse 54%, worse than his first season. I'm not going to say this is Giddey's problem, but when Giddey is given so much time with the ball, this is something that will make you think twice. Lastly, since the "touch" stat has been tracked, very few rookies that has led the draft in touches (or has had as many touches) has been as bad as Giddey has been on offense. You literally would need to look at Langston Galloway, Emmanuel Mudiay, Lonzo Ball or Dennis Smith Jr to find comparisons. Lonzo Ball is probably not a negative comparison, but he is also a significantly better defender than Giddey who is at best sub par. Now here is a stat that is even more shocking, if we look at exclusively front court touches, only Joel Embiid has had more front court touches as a rookie than Giddey has in the last 9 years, but no other rookie that led the draft in front court touches has been near as bad as Giddey has been on offense with the exception of Langston Galloway. This is going to sound like I'm trashing Giddey, but I'm not trying to. I just think the notion that Green has empty calorie points whereas Giddey's historically high level of touches but doing almost nothing with it is somehow a positive. Only Westbrook has had more touches on OKC than Giddey, not even Durant came close to Giddey's level of involvement on offense.
That is a salty comment though somewhere right there. Knowing the competition is the way to educate oneself on the whole NBA landscape. I have never said I was merely a Rox fan lmao, I am an aficionado of all things NBA and some FIBA ball. Just glimpse into the NBA Dish segment. There is a good opportunity that those players like Green, Sengun or Christopher would not be on the team in 8 years. And players like Barnes, Wagner could be traded here or elsewhere. The NBA is about player moves and fluid transfers. Since the only way you know how to be a fan, is to isolate yourself and slurp a gallon of koolaid, be my guest, just do not ruin the experience of other rookies for people like me. A broadener of horizons. Nope, I am not great but I am greatly interested in diversity of content and ideas. Have a discussion with all people, like minded, contrarian thinkers, indifferent, out of the box minds. The one thing that I have not done is to lecture folks on how to live their life and how to be a fan....... No idea where your jealous concept stems from that you have to shield Green from other rookies, but you fall on deaf ears with me, Mr. 'He is only 19'.
Google the January effect. The difference between kids born earlier in the year is MASSIVE. Don't assume something is true just because it's intuitive.
Seems great to me, the Thunder had a variety of different guards... guardlike forwards. Durant, Harden, Russ, Giddey, Reggie Jax..... Chris Paul....Shai, Dort, Cameron Payne, KMart and Schroeder.
January effect is about stock markets, what you wanted to say is relative age effects. Relative age effects pertains to biases where players born earlier dominate sports field more so than those born later, and a contributing factor are the physical advantages for children during the peak of puberty (12-16) specifically because puberty hits those born earlier first rather than those born later, but they both attend the same year. However, that has absolutely nothing to do with 19 and 20 year olds. In fact, relative age effects is known to stop being a factor after 17 year old. In addition, relative age effect is literally known as a social bias, with potential physical contributions. Unless of course, 20 year old Jalen Green born 8 months earlier than Giddey is somehow going to have a serious physical advantage over 19 year old Giddey that Giddey won't realize until it's his birthday?
How is he doing nothing with his touches? He’s 23rd in the entire league in potential assists. Yes Jalen is young as well, but the only thing he does on the court he is way below league average in efficiency. I looked up the 23 players ahead of Giddey in potential assists, every single player is an allstar besides Malcom Brogdon and Rubio, who are both terrific passers at point guard. Who is it among these 23 players you think the 19 year old should be ahead of for him to be “doing nothing” with his touches. On the other hand, I can look up Jalen’s efficiency stats and let you know the long, long list of scrubs he’s behind. Green is 283rd out of 356 players who play over 15 minutes a game in true shooting. I won’t go thorough through the 283 players and list some noteable ones to save the embarrassment. If we are comparing Giddey’s passing to Green’s scoring it would be like comparing a Picasso to a three year old’s sht stain.
Wait. "They" said that his efficiency would get worse with more touches and shots. This graph must be broken.
To be fair there is some self fulfilling prophecy going on here probably. If Jalen Green starts the game hot as in makes his first couple of buckets, he probably has added confidence in that game to demand the ball more and be more forceful.
I think this is more about Jalen's patience and shot selection than anything else. He doesn't really take more terrible shots when he is cold. He usually defers more when he has a bad shooting game. When he is on a hot streak during a game, he is willing to ask for the ball more and shoot more.
this is the most encouraging thing I’ve read on green and it makes sense. When he gets the ball more he has time to settle down and just play his game. When his touches are low he’s trying too hard because of the expectations he set for himself. He isn’t the best or even 2nd best player in this draft but he definitely isn’t a bust
You're literally proving my point. The three primary stats are points, assists and rebounds. All three of them can be "empty", but points is by far the hardest to achieve because the individual needs to be able to convert the shot. Assists and rebounds? If the ball is in your hands enough, they come by naturally, not because you are a good passer, but because you have the ball so much in your hands that someone has to shoot and sometimes they make it, regardless of the quality of the pass. Touches is representation of 4 things, how often a player passes, how often they turn it over, how often they shoot and how often they get fouled. A player with a lot of touches should in theory be the best player because these 4 factors literally are the determinant of offensive success. That means the greater proportion of touches, the greater share they have on offense. You know what that also means? If they are terrible on offense, but occupy the majority of the team's touches, you'll have a terrible offensive team. Guess which team is dead last in offensive rating? In case this isn't clear enough, Giddey is equivalent to a player taking 50 shots per game and scoring 20 points, he has by far the worse efficiency among players with the amount of touches that he gets. Just because he takes 50 shots, doesn't make him an all-star, like what you are implying. He averages an insane amount of touches, but scores by far the fewest at even worse efficiency. His scoring is bad, so you would expect his assist to be above average, but it's literally in-line with the amount of touches he has (the more touches you have, the more points and assists, Giddey is way below average in points, and below average in assists). For example, Chris Paul is 27th in the league in touches, not even top 50 in front court touches, but top in the league in assists and potential assists. Harden is 2nd in the league in touches (not even top 50 in front court touches) but 2nd in the league in assists and also scores a ton of points to go along with it. Giddey is 19th in the league in touches, 19th in the league in front court touches, doesn't score points, and is only 22nd in the league in assists and potential assist. Here is another comparison point, Draymond Green is basically the only guy that scores less than Giddey with high volume touches, but he is 39th in the league in touches, but 9th in the league in potential assists. See the trend? And this is all impressive because he had a triple double? A player taking 50 shots can score 50 points, that doesn't make him a good scorer. Giddey is special not because he is in the same list as all-stars, he is special because he is so ineffective on offense but somehow still gets the same amount of touches as an all-star, which unsurprisingly leads to the worse offense in the league.
