Athlete: running jumping, coordination, strength the ability to do all at a very high level is that 1 percent. The only thing Grenn does better than those guys is maybe quicker 1st step. Harden has nothing to do with this we are not talking about skills and if Green had better or more polished skills I would not be so negative but he does not, Morant and Kyrie had better skills, coming out. Lavine now has better skills but was already a better shooter coming out, Edwards is comparative skill wise but is a better athlete running, jumping and strength wise. I don't understand what this hand dexterity is supposed to mean because he has a shaky handle and can't finish at a high level at the basket so what does hand dexterity really mean? For a guy at that height and size to be a franchise type he has to have great handles along with the ability to finish in traffic and an above average jump shot, not many guys make a leap in ball handling ability once they reach this level and he does not seem to have the elusive ability to finish in traffic at a high level even if he gets stronger. I disagree with you, yes he has the athletic tools elite scorers have, but he does not have the skills like a Kyrie or a Crawford or even Lou Williams that stank in their game that can get you a shot on anybody, and he will never be a physical specimen to bully people like Gordon, Edwards or Mitchell. So give me the comp of who he is fully formed, I don't see him having the creativity to ever overcome his size to be that exsplosive scorer that could be considered a franchise guy. I think his max could be Lavine with more play making and more effort on defense that's a great player, but Lavine is closer to 6'5 and is a bit more fluid and Green is a ways away to be that guy,
I would take Mobley defensively at center right now over the vast majority of starting centers in the league right now. He would struggle at times against Embiid and Jokic, but who doesn't? Those guys are basically getting 30 a night. I have no issue with Mobley playing a lot of 3-4 defensively right now..... I do think that Allen will be exposed a bit in the playoffs though, and we will see more and more of Mobley at the 5 in crucial games. The Cavs are going to have more problems in the playoffs than are being exposed in the regular season so far.
Wut? I need to see how he said it, but that just reinforces a lot of what I think about him. I will say he does not seem to be a selfish player so his need for attention does not translate on the court but you never know when people start getting into his ear.
“It’s one of the most important weekends of my career,” Green said, momentarily ignoring that his career is still in its infancy. “Hopefully, there’s going to be more to come.” He also talked about how he loves the bright lights. Yeah I agree he doesn’t seem selfish and seems like a genuinely nice kid. He seems like he wants to be great and has a good work ethic, but his goal seems more to be famous and have people think he’s great on its own rather than to win championships. That’s not an archetype we are really used to and I’m kind of skeptical it’s a good blue print for a key piece in building a successful NBA team.
That's not good. I could see him saying that if he was in the all star game but the dunk contest? Can you imagine if KPJ said the same thing, how everybody would be coming for his head?
Depending on where Mobley was drafted he likely would have played the 5 right off the bat and the 5 is his likely final destination to make the most of his skillset (similar to Bosh & Adebayo). He landed in an excellent situation.
Like @Nook said, Mobley would have been an excellent 5 for many teams. Forr the Raptors. Or the Thunder. Or the Rockets. He would have been equally as excellent playing the 3 or 4, for any team in NBA. He is just talented that way.
I definitely think he’s sincere about wanting to be a great basketball player. And I believe he’ll put in the work. I think what has surprised and disappointed me is how one-dimensional his game is. I knew he was the least developed prospect in the top 5 but I hoped his game would be more well-rounded. The most glaring issue, other than the bad defense, is that he’s not a very good dribbler, which is one of the most underrated skills in the nba for guards. I can excuse a little immaturity and perhaps an over focus on flash. But I need to see a big leap between year one and year two. There’s no point rehashing draft night. I hope Green develops into one of the greats. But if he doesn’t take that big step next year and look like a good basketball player, people are gonna look at things like the dunk contest and clown the kid.
“Max contract” was literally one of his goals in his first post draft interview, his other goals were also entirely individual, and delusional (1st team all defense LOL)
Okay. Green is elite as a runner and jumper and coordination wise. He is not terribly strong, in fact he clearly is weak in his core. Having said that, core strength is something he can improve and in the modern NBA, you can be successful without being terribly strong. You listed 3-4 guys and there are roughly 450 guys in the league, so even if he were beneath them, he could still be in the top 1% (which is kind of an arbitrary distinction to me as Kobe wasn't even in the top 1% IMO and some other great one on one scorers). Having said that, Green is certainly in the same class as a jumper, runner and coordination as the guys you listed. He isn't as strong as they are, and he isn't as skilled or as long as them. This is where we disagree. Harden's ability to stop on a dime isn't a skill, that is athleticism. No matter how hard someone works out, that is something you are born with and he is incredibly elite at it to a degree that he is possibly the best basketball player ever at it. Also the level of coordination that Harden has is all world. Was Lavine a better shooter coming out? I think they were very comparable. Lavine and Green shot nearly the same. Lavine was at UCLA and shot 37% on 3.5 attempts from 3 and Green was in the G-League and shot 35% on 5.5 attempts. That is really close, and Green took more. Green was the better free throw shooter as well, and that usually is a solid measure for how good someone will be a shooter long term. There is no doubt that Lavine is a very good three point shooter though. Hand dexterity is the feel for the basketball, the ability to control the ball in your hand and to do what you want with it in a one on one situation. It is different than just a handle. There are a number of great point guards, that didn't have great hand dexterity. Virtually all great one one one guards have it. Green has it. I agree that Green has a shaky handle, and it is something that has to improve. However it is something that can improve with work. Green finishes well at the basket, that isn't the problem. His issue is 2-8 feet from the basket. He isn't strong or terrible long so he struggles. He will have to get stronger in his core to address that. He already finishes well above average at the rim, and if he gets stronger will likely be in the category of Morant (who is noticeably stronger than when he was younger). He is going to get stronger, so I am not terribly worried about that. In the modern NBA he doesn't have to be terribly strong, just strong enough and with age and his work ethic he will be strong enough. Players improve their handles all the time. What they don't usually improve is hand dexterity by a lot because it is something you typically have or do not have. Also, it isn't as if he is Robert Horry handling the ball, he just needs to refine what he already has. Right now he doesn't have the confidence in his handles. As far as finishing in traffic, that I cannot tell you because we won't know until he is stronger. I can tell you that he already finishes well, his issue is before he gets to the rim because he either tries to avoid contact because he knows he is weak or he cannot finish through contact because he is weak. That will get better when he gets stronger, but how much better? No one really knows. His skill level has to improve, but there are a number of players that improved their skill level once entering the league. Also it isn't that he doesn't have skills, they are just not good enough. He is never going to be build like Gordon or Harden or Mitchell, he doesn't have that body type and he doesn't have their length either (his wingspan is more of an issue to me than his handle or shot because those will improve). It is hard to make a direct comparison to him because I don't know HOW much more he will improve his handle and shot. I can mostly point out things that are going to keep him from likely being brilliant, like his lack of height and his bad wingspan. I am confident that he will be a good three point shooter because of his touch and work either. I am confident that he will be able to finish at the basket because of his athleticism and the fact that he already does it well. I don't know how good of a passer he will be because his usage has been too low. He appears to have better court vision than Beal, Lavine and Booker. However I don't see vision like T-Mac or Harden or Doncic. What I can tell you is that as a shooter I think long term he can be similar to Lavine. He has a really good natural touch. I think as an athlete he is similar to Lavine but he is more fluid, and he has better hand dexterity. Zach Lavine has a longer wingspan and is stronger. I think Green is more talented than Lavine at the same age, but Lavine worked hard and improved his skill set a lot. There are direct comps for a lot of guys, but not for everyone. For example, what would be the comp for Harden? Steph Curry? Nowitzki? Olajuwon? Some players are just different than others. To be clear, I wanted Mobley at #2 and would take Mobley at #2 if the draft were held tomorrow. Having said that Green was 4 on my board, and he has been close to what I expected overall so far. I had him at 13-15 points a game and at 40% from the floor. He has been a tad bit lower than that, but he also has shown more court vision than I expected. I don't know if Green will ever be a franchise player, if you put a gun to my head I would say "no" but I see the talent and where he needs to improve, typically improvement happens with hard work... so his ceiling is still intact. He has already improved some defensively and he is playing better than he was earlier in the season. He should be at least a solid Jason Terry type player with the upside of an elite scorer with a 10-15% chance of being a franchise player if his skills improve and he shows strong court vision. I never point out his flaws because now I only hear negative things about him...... so he does have long term warts. He isn't a great frame and he will likely never be able to carry the load that Harden or Kobe or LeBron have. He isn't a tank and he isn't as long as those guys. He can still be a franchise player like Jerry West or Steph Curry... they didn't have good frames either. However if you were to create an ideal franchise guy he would be strong and long. Green also isn't terribly tall either and will have to utilize screens and ball movement.
Not all skinny guys are frail. There are skinny strong guys who do NOT shy away from physical play. Like Chet. And there are the skinny guys who are just weak and avoid physicality.
A lot of it comes down to core strength. There are some guys that like physical contact and still consistently pushed away.... but some thin guys are really strong in their core and can hold their own enough to compete and thrive. Allen Iverson was not a very heavy man and he could take a beating and for the most part compete inside for the guard spot. There are a lot of others as well. Rip Hamilton was able to handle the physical nature of the NBA in a far more physical league than the current NBA. Chet sometimes does get bumped in mid air by bigger players, but he has surprising core strength and balance, and he is relentless and is one of those guys that is like water and finds a crease to get inside and alter shots or get rebounds. Having a 7'6" wingspan and being an underrated jumper off one leg also helps too. Green can get better with more core strength.
Good observation about Vince. He’s just bigger and bulkier than many SGs and that’s why he looked not as fluid. Young Kobe and Young MJ were skinny, but with unbelievable fluidity, hang-time, and body contortions. What that enabled them to do was to attack, explode and finish in traffic against set defenses. Extremely valuable. Ja Morant is somewhat similar. JGreen - I thought - he had that too, based on what I saw in his G-league highlights. Haven’t seen any of that in the NBA. Some impressive breakaway dunks, alley-oops, now and than, yes. But what happened to that ability to explode, contort his body and finish among defenders? To me, that was the thesis for a #2 pick. That thesis blew up.
I don't see how he can have elite coordination when he has a shaky handle and seems to be only explosive in a straight line. We are in agreement on most of this and I am not in any way saying he is a bust but i don't ever see him being the guy on a contending team and he does not need to be because a contending team needs multiple guys behind the guy and i think he can be a very valuable piece. Terry is a great comp, if he can be Terry 2.0 with better play making skills I would be happy, but he will have to improve his jump shooting to elite and I can see that now that he has smooved out his release.
I tracked Edwards, he came in with about 220 pounds as a rookie, and is probably at 225 pounds. Did not add that much.
No, I mean that Edwards weighs a lot more than Jalen Green but is every bit as good an athlete as Green even though he is carrying more weight.
OK, I’m glad someone brought up AI. I’m of the persuasion that what made Iverson was his alpha personality. I mean, a small skinny dude going against 90s rim defenses, which nowadays would be considered aggravated assault felonies, challenging them and finishing, to me that was pure cajones, "toxic masculinity". I saw in your other post that you think that’s debunked now, but I haven’t seen any evidence to that effect. This kid here, Green, is clearly timid, hesitant and effeminate and this correlates with his unwillingness to attack defenders and be physical even against today’s cupcake defenses. I think of your statement more as political correctness, not evidence-based empirical observation. I may be wrong, but I haven’t seen any good data-based arguments against my 30-year observations of NBA.
He is more fluid and better from side to side than Levine, who is very much a straight line athlete (he is elite at it). Lavine has worked hard on it and is better from side to side than he was before but the lack of explosion and coordination to the side is largely why he is a poor defender. Green was very much a straight line or down hill athlete when he was in workouts. However, it is an area where he has greatly improved and it is why I am a little more optimistic about him defensively than I was when I thought he would always be a disaster. Having watched his improvement I believe that he must not have had to ever do it before because that is an area where you are only going to get marginal improvement and Green has more than marginally improved. Yeah, the Rockets need him to be a top 3-4 player on a championship team. I don't expect him to be a franchise player, but it is nice that there is a chance it can happen. I would be happy with an above average league starter than can get 20 points a night on decent efficiency while competing on the defensive end. I am fairly confident he can do that..... but if that is what he becomes, then the Rockets need to really do well in their pick this year and get a franchise type player. Green has to improve and there are no guarantees, but at least there isn't a clear reason he cannot improve.
The term or idea of Alpha has largely been debunked from a clinical stand point. That doesn't mean that a player cannot be aggressive or have a higher pain tolerance or have a preference for a physical style of play. There is no question that Iverson was tough and played injured and wanted the ball in his hands. The issue with Alpha is that is used a catchall term for anything viewed as positive or leadership related. We know that there are a multitude of different personalities that can win. For example, Michael Jordan and LeBron James are known to have different personality types. Kareem Abdul Jabbar has a drastically different personality trait than Jordan. All of these players have won titles and lead teams with different personality traits and types. Tim Duncan and Bryant are very different. I don't know if Green will shy away in the biggest moments, but what he does at 19 doesn't mean as much as you would think. LeBron James regularly passed up big shots at the end of games when he was younger and was criticized for it. He was very close to being labeled a massive choker in the Finals against the Spurs if Ray Allen hadn't bailed him out at the end. Kareem was viewed as a passive loser while in Milwaukee. People said that Jerry West didn't have what it took in the clutch and he is now the logo and the greatest executive since the 1950's. No one would question his toughness or ability in the clutch now. Yet he consistently lost in the Finals with the Lakers.
