Yeah, but that is completely discouting the fact that Kobe rode Shaq's coattails in order to get thoes three rings. Thus, "Getting it" wouldn't have happned. Not without Shaq. What? Does "getting it" at 24 mean that Kobe achieves the same dominance of Jordan and Shaq, just because he "gets it (w/Shaq)?" Looks good on paper, but Kobe would have to actually play the game w/out Shaq in order to prove that theory. For example, lets say that Kobe goes to the Spurs and plays with Duncan. And they both get three more rings. Now, Kobe would have six rings to his name, the same as Jordan. Do that mean that he's just a good as Jodan? I think not. If Kobe goes to another team with LESS talent than Duncan, then there will be NO "three more rings" to speak of. Kobe would need a lot more other talent if he does't have a superstar like Duncan (or Shaq).
Okay, I'll meet you half way. There is no way we know what Kobe could have done with MJ's team, and it hurts his case. After this season we'll probably find out. When I wrote Seattle I meant Sacramento.
hey, I think Isiah Thomas was in that list.. I just checked. He was a crazy player back then, his stat is sick too.
I guess we will find out where will this comparison stand next season, now that shaq will most likely be gone.
Gotta agree with Drexlerfan22 about Pippen. If Jordan's the greatest ever, why did his team's record only take a hit of about five wins when in his absence? Who replaced him in the rotation, Pete Meyers? I think '93-94 was the season in which Pippen became the second player after Dave Cowens to lead his team in every statistical category.
Immediately after a player leaves there is a need to elevate one's game, a need to prove the missing player was not essential. Look at Ralph when (then) Akeem was hurt. The key is long-term sustaining of that new level. MJ kept improving himself. At 25? Kobe may trump MJ. But MJ just lept getting better and better. With him Da Bulls were a legit title threat. Without him Da Bulls were a good team without post season destiny.
I don't feel it's necessary to quote your entire post, but every player you mentioned was not "all that" while the Bulls were losing and MJ was tagged with Akeemitis (not trusting your teammates). Since you want to compare the two, it's only fair to do so at the same age (25, or MJ's 88-89 season). At 25, what teammates were on the Bulls that MJ should have trusted? Rodman & Harper were not there, and when they were, he trusted them enough to get 3 titles. Grant & Pippen were only in their second seasons (basically not into their own yet). 88-89 was Cartwright's first season with the Bulls, and he was 31 then, averaging 12 points on 48% from the field. Not great for a center. Once again, when MJ was accused of Akeemitis, what teammates should he have trusted? I do think Pippen, at his best, was one of the best SF's ever. He could score, he could pass, he played big in big moments, and he was arguably the games best defender. Please name 5 SF's you would rather have (doable), and name one from his time that you would rather have (I can't think of one). If any period is watered down, it is this one. Lakers: probably the weakest finals opponent Blazers: Drexler and a lot of depth. Definate favorite in todays league. Suns: Barkley, KJ and depth. Definate favorite in todays league. Sonics: Payton & Kemp. Definate favorite in todays league. Jazz: Stockton, Malone and depth. Definate favorite in todays league. Based on what? If MJ is able to shoot 54% facing more pressure, I don't think he would have trouble adjusting to playing with Shaq and not having 2-3 defenders draped on him all game long. I don't recall any Rockets (even Drexler) saying, man...it sure is harder to score when the D is focused on Dream. At 25, Jordan shot 28% from behind the arc, but he only took 98. The next yr (at 26), he took 245 (more than Kobe took except for 1 season) and shot 38% (tied with Kobe's best season). Kobe being a better 3 point shooter is quite debatable.
I can't believe you guys are actually having this discussion. All you have to do is watch their games. When Kobe tries to 'turn it on', it's the same old thing - he tries to do to much, takes it all on himself, and everyone else is standing around watching five-on-one basketball. Yeah, he makes some spectacular Jordan like shots from time to time, but that doesn't mean he's Jordan. When Jordan 'turned it on', you knew you were screwed. It was like he brought everyone with him; the whole team came to another level. He made everyone better, had them believe in what he was doing. He would just as likely stick you with the dagger as draw the defense and find Kerr for 3 to ice it. Kobe is a fantastic player. But there is no comparison.
As much as I like to bash Kobe any chance I get, lets wait til he retires and look at both careers. We'll definitely know the answer then.
I think alot of you have forgotten what Jordan was like. One thing is he is probably one of the strongest shooting guards to ever play. There is no way a guy like Prince would have given him problems in his youth. He would have just bowled over him. He would have made it his personal mission to make Prince cry.
KObe doesn't have the precision of MJ in his prime. He hasn't been an MVP, or a FInals MVP yet. But he is still 25. It will be interesting to see where he gets. The talent is there, the work ethics is there, it's just that he doesn't have this regality around him that MJ had. Stubborness is not that much of a taint in my eyes, all champions are stubborn. Team play? Team shplay! Had MJ not taken over in critical moments, Tex Winters would be wiping his 90 year-old A$$ with the triangle offense notebooks right now. This league has always been about stars and defense. Pistons, Bullets and Sonics are the exceptions, not the rule.
I dont know what this debate is even about.. remember when Shaq was with the Magic and he made someone else look like a superstar? remember Penny anyone? Second tier players look good when they play next to a superstar. Jordan / Pippen Shaq / Kobe Shaq / Penny Kobe wants to get out of Shaq's shadow.. fine we'll see how well he does when he is the focus of the other teams defense. when he doesnt have someone else commanding double and triple teams. For some reason this Finals Kobe didnt play well?!? he scored his points but if you watched the game it seemed like Kobe wasnt pulling his weight? Shaq did his job... he was unstoppable. Kobe didnt do his.. J
Kobe quits and whines because he wants to be the man. Jordan wants to win at all cost and doesn't quit on his team when his teammates call him out and says he takes too many shots. Kobe tanked it on purpose in the finals. Kobe at the end of the day is an arrogant, egocentric lil b!tch that only wants to be like Jordan which will never happen. Kobe quit in the finals and quit in the Sacramento game because he's a lil b!tch. Jordan never quit and put winning first above all.
