Francis Vs. T_Mac Lets forget for a second that we are giving up 3 starters in the deal Clutch talks about and just look at T-mac and Francis since Mcgrady would basically take over Steves role being a point forward. Everyones main complaint in here about Francis is turnovers and stupid shots. Last year was Francis's worst year as a pro and we will use those numbers along with T-Macs for comparison. -----------G----M----FG%---3%---FT%--RB--AST--ST--BLK--TO--Pts Francis-79--40.4--.403--.292--.775--5.5--6.2-1.76-.44--3.72--16.6 T-Mac---67--39.9--.417-.339--.796--6.0--5.5-1.39-.63--2.67--28.0 First If you look at the Fg% you are not gaining much(.14) and this was Francis worst year by far. Next If you look at points per game and the big differrence, it just means that T-mac was taking that many more bad shots a game with about the same fg%. Francis took about 14 shots a game and T-mac about 23 with the about the same fg%. Next if you look at Turnovers Steve has about 1 more a game, But averages .37 more steals and .7 more assists which about evens out. I know T-Mac is a little better player and I am just nitpicking stats, but everybody is salivating over T-Mac and there isn't much diffrrence between him and Francis(in his worst year) besides the fact T-Mac takes alot more shots, which will have everyone here complaining in about 6 months. He will have the same problem as Steve trying to gel with an offense he does not fit in. Most importantly they want 3/5 of our starting lineup for him. I wouldn't do it.
I'm Not Salivating You're dead on T-Man. As good as T-Mac is, it's impossible to predict exactly how productive he'd be in our JVG system. Despite SF's lower numbers this past year, he's a much better bet on the premise of WYSIWYG "what you see is what you get." This is the problem with evaluating players from sub 500 teams...Like the price of oil these days, the productivity figures of such players are usually INFLATED. Moreover, this Weisbrod character is living in a pipe dream if what I read is correct. He's asking for way too much and any team that deals with Weisbrod is going to get severly r*ped (oops! sorry judge, I wasn't referring to Kobe.) Additionally, if the latest finals was any indication, HEALTH MATTERS! First Webber from last year, Cassell, then Malone. SF is 100% healthy by my understanding. T-Mac has a bad back that requires acupuncture for chrissake. There's no amount of talent that is worth a gamble when it comes to health. Just ask Weisbrod. He'll tell you about this other character by the initials G.H. theSAGE
How can you "nitpick," if you leave out T-Mac's low turnovers? This is my favorite...."T-Mac is a little better player (than SF)..." Heh.... And that part about "Steve has about 1 more TO a game..." is telling! Do you really think that, for example, a player that has 3.5 TO per game is only "a little" worse than someone that has 2.5 TO per game? Do you really think that? Do you know how that plays out on the court? Do you? Apparently you don't. Since you only think, "Oh, it's only 1 more TO per game! What's the big deal!? Even if all things were equal, which they are not, why in the hell would not want to at least trade in SF's turnovers? At least you'll be getting a player that gets 120 less TO per year. If you really want to compare Francis to McGrady, why don't you use the 2002-2003 stat for BOTH players....then get back to me. In 2002-2003, Francis was still "the man" and McGrady wasn't nursing an injury. SF: .435FG%, 21PPG, .354%3PT, 3.69TO, 6.2RPG TM: .457FG%, 32PPG, .386%3PT, 2.67TO, 6.5RPG
Without me even defending myself here, Reread what you just wrote and tell me how you came to the conclusion I left out the turnovers. Look at the numbers and tell me what makes him so much better. I would really like to know. I know numbers can be misleading but they are very similar here. So, if that statement is so out there, explain to me how I am so wrong on it. Don't just pretend like it is the dumbest thing you ever heard. That in itself is the weakest argument a person can make. Yes, especially when the one with 3.5 is has the ball in his hands everytime down court as the point guard in an offense where you run the clock down and are forced to make last second descisions. Granted T-Mac plays alot of point forward. His Turnovers would more than likely go up here too, considering he would pretty much always be our point forward in said offense. That is a loaded question. There are many ways a turnover can play out. But, the extra assist .7 and steal .37 combined a game kinda even it out. Not exactly, I know, but not the catastrophe you make it out to be. Who also jacks up almost twice as many bad shots. And at what point did we start playing 120 games a year?
I do stats for the Sixers as an internship over the summer, so I love them more than anyone. But they don't tell the whole story. If you watch the two players on the court, it's obvious that Tracy has exponentially more talent than Francis. He's just as athletic, only he's a legit 6'8" and has long arms. He scores well off the ball, something Steve seems incapable of. And with his length and athleticism he can defend three, and in certain matchups four positions. Stevie, while improved, can barely guard one. There are still questions about Tracy. Does he have the head to be great? Does he have the heart to be great? There's no question Steve has the heart. But he certainly doesn't have the head. As for the debate about turnovers... If Tracy dominated the ball as much as Steve did, he'd like average about 3.7 turnovers per game too. So would Cat, we tried to make him play PG. But because Tracy plays off the ball, his turnover numbers are naturally lower. What we need is a low-turnover PG like Eric Snow or Jeff McInnis to pair with McGrady in our backcourt. But make no mistake. Tracy is a much more TALENTED player than Steve.
i also feel that stats can be misleading. i also think sometimes t-mac chunks up some crap, but man, this is a tough one. i watch a lot of b-ball. i've had the nbalp for years because i live in austin and cannot get rockets games. i watch basically all of them (in part at least.) also, as a fan of the game i find myself watching large parts of other games as well. over the years i've ended up watching long durations of crappy magic games just to watch t-mac play. the dude has "it." when you see him play, you just know it. sf3, while extremely talented, doesn't appear to have "it" IMHO. at the same time, i keep debating with myself about giving up 3/5 of our starting lineup for this guy. this type of stuff must drive gm's mad. the conclusion i've come to at this point is that i'm still undecided. man, this is frustrating...
T-Man...I agree with you and have been preaching this since the T-Mac news broke but you're not going to convince anyone. Believe me I have tried. Houstonians have made up their minds that they HATE Steve and don't think he can lead this team anywhere. There's no way to change these peoples minds. It's like trying to convince J-Lo to stay with ONE person for more than a couple weeks. I talk to alot of people, and 4 out of 5 want to get rid of steve at all costs. Remember, these are the same people that think a HIGH SCHOOL PG can run an offense better than Steve which is absurd and sad that they have that kind of small mentality. I LOVE the Rockets and will always live and die routing for them, so if this deal goes down I will have a second team to route for.
I am one of the Biggest SF fans around but T-mac is a great offensive player Hell if this deal goes down Orlando will be my second favorite team Rocket River
T-Man, you've learned the #1 Rule of this Forum. If the stats show Francis in a favorable light they must be misleading.
Honestly, if T-Mac has a guy like Yao - or ANYONE ELSE who would get attention from the defense - I think you'd see T-Mac's numbers improve. Yeah, he carried the load over there, 'cause he had to. T-Mac also gets the love from the refs that Steve unfortunately does not. Comparing stats from a SG and a PG are often misleading. And just looking at raw numbers without putting them in context can get you into trouble.
How can you make this conclusion? Just because they have somewhat comparable stats doesn't mean T-Mac wil have a hard time gelling with the offense. Let's take Latrell Sprewell for example- he is your typical guard who likes to take lots of shots, shoots a low percentage, and turns the ball over. Despite this, he has been perfect in his role with the Timberwolves. He can understand the offense, can move without the ball, plays excellent defense, and is tremendous on the break. I would say T-Mac embodies those charactersitics a lot more than Steve does.
You are starting this post with a misconception- Steve was playing the Playmaker Point Guard with the Rockets [ at least that was what he was supposed to be doing]. TMcG will be playing Shooting Guard/Small Forward so drawing your conclusions based upon a misconception is erroneous.
I did show you the numbers. Like I said, at least show the number where Francis was in charge (21ppg), and McGrady was not injured (32ppg). That would be 2002-2003. Can you tell the difference? 2002-2003 SF: .435FG%, 21PPG, .354%3PT, 3.69TO, 6.2RPG TM: .457FG%, 32PPG, .386%3PT, 2.67TO, 6.5RPG Both players don't live in a vacuum of 2003-2004. Francis best years was when he was doing 21/6/6. But you have to show what McGrady is capable of too. Not just show his injury year. Last years numbers were bad for both players (shooting wise). But that's not the true measure. Look at their career. Then you'll know more about what they are capable of. So, you are saying that the reason that Francis has high turnovers is because he brings the ball up the court most of the time? That's like saying that the reason MoT is a bad rebounder is because he's in the paint all the time. Francis is our PG. That's his job; bring the ball up. If he can't do that job, then he's not a PG. As far other PGs that bring the ball up, you mean like Bibby, Nash, Fisher, Billups? Bring up the ball like that? Seems like they don't have any problam with turnovers even when they have the ball in their hands most of the time. Players turnovers don't just go up just because they have the ball in their hands all the time! They either know OR don't know how to make good decisions. Francis has played in a ISO system and an structured system. Yet he still at 3.7 turnovers per game. McGrady has consistently had low turnover his whole career. Don't tell me that they will go up just because he'd bring the ball up the court. Besides, he'd be our SG, not our PG. As a bonus....TM is a SG that can pass w/low turnovers! He knows when and when not the make a pass. Francis is not good at this. And it's his job! He's the PG! Yet, TM is better at passing w/out turnovers? Heh... So, you really think that Francis's assist "kinda even it out?" Really? You think that's is better to have a PG that has 6.2APG with a 3.7TO per game rather than a SG that has 5.5APG and 2.6TO per game? Really? The key to a complete player is to make the least amount of mistakes possible. Not, how much can I make up for those flaws. Let me see if I can explain this.... If a player like Francis is on the court, he'll hurt his cause by turnovers, even if he does other things like steals. No matter how you slice it, he's still a liability. McGrady, at least doesn't hurt his cause by turning the ball over at a high rate. Thus, his time on the court is spent doing good things, "not trying to plug the damn" on mistakes he's already done. So, you take last years numbers and then proclaim that McGrady will play the same way? Why? Do you define a player by just one year stats? Like I said, why don't you take this career stats! Why don't you look at the previous years stats!? Why do you pick last year were McGrady was nursing injuries? And when I said, "120" I was talking about Francis getting 120 more turnovers per year than McGrady.
Couldn't agree more. T-Mac is the only guard I would trade Francis for. If the deal does happen, looks like I will be watching my League Pass a whole lot more.
Bottom Line is TMAC is better than steve I guess you are bored like the above poster said. Ask any GM or coach and who do they would rather have, Steve or Tmac. I bet all of them say tmac.
You don't have to be a genius to know T-Mac KNOWS how to play the game and Francis DOESN'T. Francis improved a lot last season but he is still far from getting IT.
Why do you just look at their numbers in 03-04? If you look at their career, TMac consistently shoot above .450 (5 of his 7 years in the NBA). Last year was exceptionally low for him. Last year was also exceptionally low for Francis. But Francis only shoot better than .450 in 1 out of his 5-year career. Now, tell me who is a more efficient scorer. Also, TMac has no other scorers on his team. Opponent can focus their defense on him. He is the kind of scorer teams double on. Francis has a lot more offensive help. I seldom see people double-team Francis. This is a very important difference. A player who commands double team makes his teammates' job much easier. With Francis, people just double team Yao. With TMac, we would have two players that command double team. P.S. If we trade Francis for McGrady, McGrady is NOT going to be our point forward. Where did you get this idea? We are going to get a PG who can handle the ball.
I'm not for or against any of the two...but T-MAC got his numbers on the worst team in the league and with opposing defenses focusing solely on him. SF really never had a defense trying to shut him down b/c they were usually focusing on Yao.
