Teachers are buying supplies because the money that tax payers generously lavish upon our system isn't being well handled by those entrusted with its care... imagine that. There's more then enough money in the American public education system. The United States is always in the top 3 in the world for spending per pupil. It's not a money issue. It's how is the money used issue. The martyrdom of teachers on the internet is extreme. Obviously this topic lends itself to exaggeration, hyperbole and extremely disingenuous examples. You choose to coach a sport, that's great, hopefully its a wonderful thing that helps develop the young people under your stewardship. Most teachers do not coach a sport. The typical American teacher works 180 days a year. You wanna work summer school? Great, no one makes you, most don't. You want to coach or do band or whatever? Great, no one makes you, most don't. The typical American worker works 260 days a year. There's a lot of teachers making 50-70k and even more administrators making even more only working 180 days a year. That's not a bad gig. 8-9 weeks off in summer, 2-3 weeks at Xmas, a week at Thanksgiving, Springbreak, every bank holiday etc etc.... benefits, pension etc etc... It's not nearly as bad as the martyrs make it. There's a lot to be grateful for. Not everyone buys the martyr teacher narrative. Looks like Klein ISD (where I grew up) has teachers starting at $57,800 and going to $66,672.... It's not amazing but it's far from pauper and again, you're only working 180 days a year.... which is totally inconceivably awesome for the majority of workers.
You talk of Hyperbole and extremely disingenuous examples and then say teachers work 180 days a year. Now that is disingenuous. lets not look at days but hours. Average worker has 2080 hours in a year. That is not including vacation time and sick time. Lets say the worker is going to miss 12 days of work due to sickness and vacation time. they are now working 1984 hours in the year. Lets say a teacher just works 180 days in the school year like you suggest, but they work a 10 hour day. That would mean arriving at the school at 7:00 and leaving at 5:00. Being that I ACTUALLY DO THIS FOR A LIVING I CAN TELL YOU THAT IS PRETTY REASONABLE. . . . . Not hyperbole, not and exaggeration. I see it day in and day out. They are still working 1800 hours in a year. That's only 196 hours less than your average American worker. If you are the smartest person in the room, you are probably in the wrong room. or, Ignorance is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity. Here is the catch, and follow along if you can. The first day of school, isn't the first day that teachers show up to the building to work. 2 weeks before the school year begins the building is busy. Teachers are coming in on their own time to plan for the year, get their classrooms ready, and collaborate with one another. Next, the last day of school, is not the last day that teachers work. . . . . There is another week baked into the schedule where teachers are wrapping up the year, maybe lesson planning, finishing grades, working with students that didn't get everything done but still want to pass. Finally, if you think I spend my whole break sipping vintage scotch that I purchased with my exorbitant low work high paying job you are a fool. Christmas break I worked 2 days in my classroom for about 6 hours a day. We are moving into finals and end of semester and I needed to get all of my grading and tests in order. Spring break I typically work at least 1 day. So slap in an extra 3=4 weeks at 40 hours a week on the extreme low end and we are working just as many hours as the average American worker. In reality teachers are putting in 60 hours a week if you are only counting those 180 days when its all said and done, I will let you do that math, The average worker would only work 4 days in a row in they were working 10's teachers get to work 5. Still the best part is, you get to have uniformed people who have never done this a day in their life tell you "How it is". I am just going to shoot you some statements and situations I hear and see all the time and let me know how it would fly at your job. Take these as if they were coming from a costumer you were working with. Why didn't you respond immediately back, this is way to long to get back to me. I receive these emails around 10:00 at night Do it for the kids - Any time parents need more of my time Teachers don't do it for the money - Whenever teacher pay comes up I need you to tailor everything to my one student or I will go to the administration and create all kinds of problems. Usually parents of students that are both equally disengaged from learning I pay your salary, I am basically your boss - Generally right leaning parents that want you to do something their way. My states education is funded by sales tax. I too pay my salary. . . . . . Teaching isn't that hard, I teach a Sunday school class at my church. My kid doesn't get along with that teacher, they should be fired. Fun story, when I was in Junior High my cousin warned me about the worst teacher in the school, he was mean, unfair, and just overall the worst person in the world. I loved him, thought he was great, and was a reason I became a teacher. Tell me, who was right???? You are overpaid for how much you work. . . . . . . This one usually comes from woefully uniformed people who assume that teachers show up to work with the kids and leave with the kids. That there is some magical curriculum fairy the creates all the content teachers teach. They just have to read from a script and then turn their assignments in to the grading fairy you does that work for them. Letting the teacher lead a life of leisure where they are basically just babysitting some kids for 7 hours and can be seen running from the school screaming gleefully because their work day is over and they get to do whatever they want. Honestly though this is the hardest part of being a teacher and its why teachers get burnt out and are resigning in droves. The decisions that are made in a day. When I worked in banking I had maybe 20 major decisions to make in a day. That is my first 30 min of class in teaching. By the end of the day I am so drained that its hard to get the other stuff done. I have been making decisions and putting out fires all day long. I am expected to teach, life coach, motivate, counsel, uplift, discipline, engage, break up fights, prepare for disasters, monitor behavior non stop, and protect every kid in my classroom. Its hard but for the most part I have felt like its worth it. Just realize, this job isn't done after 180 days. Its always on my mind, I am always on when I am in the community, because I am a teacher and you are an example. I know teachers who will not enter bars because of how it will appear. Imagine if your job was scrutinized like this. I am out, I have work to do. But no, you tell me how it is. Tell me how this is a PRETTY REASONABLE work environment You seem to have all the answers. . . . .
Texas has 180 school days a year. That's literally in the contract most teachers sign correct? It's not disingenuous to point that out at all. How many days am I suppose to say they work? Based off your self reported hours? Ok, seems legit. I'll go with those. This self proclaimed 10 hours a day is based on what? Self reporting? As if self reporting doesn't it lend itself toward exaggeration, and almost exclusively in one direction. Teachers are staying after school 2 hours every single day? The school is "busy" two weeks before classes start? For how many hours a day? All 10 days? Some don't do more then others? There's so much self serving anecdotal information. Of course some go above and beyond and some do the minimum but you never hear about those doing the minimum it's always folks like you who claim everyone is doing crazy off hours time. Teachers don't have sick days or other days off other then those officially given to them but I have to count those for other workers? Teachers get sick and miss school days for things like funerals, doctors appointments etc etc just like everyone else. Yea, the math you literally just made up, based upon your totally not biased position on the subject. You see how this works? We went from 8-9 weeks of summer, spring break, 2-3 weeks of Christmas, thanksgiving, every bank holiday... let's call it 13 weeks on the low side..... and now somehow you're "essentially" break even with a "regular" U.S. worker.... based on your convoluted anecdotal and self reported information. "Regular" U.S. workers can pull all your same tricks and claim "There's a lot of hours that go into my work that aren't properly accounted for or compensated." Most teachers aren't doing too bad. Most are starting at about $60k in places like Klein or Cy-Fair and only work 3/4's of the year.
Nope you are right. School day starts when the bell rings and all teachers leave on the final bell. Easiest job in the world. Don't know why more people do it. I guess they are just not lazy enough. On the hours, I am going on the low side. If you want me to count up my hours I am pushing 3000 a year. Thursday I have a game. I will report to the school and begin teaching at 7:00 and we will get home from our game at 1:00 in the AM. I am working that entire time. I have at least 1 of those days a week. That is an 18 hour day. This week I have practice from 5:30 to 7:30 at night. I am working from 7 in the morning until 8:00 at night, that is a 13 hour day every day of the week except Thursday when I get to put in a 18 hour day. We have a games Saturday, I am the head coach and will be there from 3 until 10. That is a 7 hour day. So I am working a 6 day week this week, and will work a total of 77 hours. Next week will be a bit better probably only 65 hours, but that's just "convoluted, anecdotal, and self reported." I think I was being fair in saying teachers work 50 hours a week. I am not even giving you my hours. Let me guess, you had a big breakfast this morning, so world hunger is fake. You complain of bad evidence yet cherry pick your own. You do know that all school districts are not on the same footing. You have districts with vastly more money than others. Just like you have states with vastly different funding per pupil spending than others. That's like looking at average teacher salaries and assuming every teacher is making that kind of money. The last district I worked in was as poor as could be. After my first 4 years teaching I moved to a much better funded district and was making more than teachers that had masters and 20+ years of experience at my previous. These are facts, I was there, I did the research on salaries and salary structures for both schools. Just for fun you should compare the state of Wyoming vs any other state touching it. You might be shocked. I doubt you will because you come across as someone who thinks they know it all, and if it does not come from your brain it must be biased. . . . . . Here is your states teacher salary schedule, meaning what most rural and poor districts are paying their teachers. https://tea.texas.gov/texas-educators/salary-and-service-record/2020-2021-minimum-salary-schedule A far cry from the 60K you keep touting. Oh and look at that teachers are required to work 187 days not 180, its almost like they expect the teachers to be in the school when students are not, you should call your local rep and get that fixed, its messing with your argument.
There also teacher development days. I would say it's closer to 200 days a year, including extra curricular and workshop and etc. That's about 40 work weeks, vs 46 to 48 weeks of typical corporate jobs (PTO plus personal days). That said, they probably work more in those 40 hours, including doing lesson plans on weekends than average corporate week.
There's 180 school days in Texas. You're trying to tell me your position is teachers work 4 entire weeks extra at 10 hours a day at school during the year? That's not true. Maybe like 5 days before the school year starts and maybe 1-2 more but 20 more? C'mon man... that's supported by nothing.
There it is. "Maybe". "Maybe" you don't know s*** and you should really stop this argument. The school year is not 180 days. They changed that law years ago. It's now based on minutes...75,600 minutes to be exact. Teachers are typically on a contract of 187 days (and administrators are typically on 226 days and are basically on campus year round). They do not work from school bell to school bell. There's hours before and after doing extra instruction. There's clubs. There's PTO meetings. There's open houses and other events they're required to be at the school for. After all of that comes planning and grading. I could go on as much as @IVFL, but you've been told all of this numerous times in this thread. Why you keep harping on this is beyond me.
I assume this is still roughly accurate (from 2008): https://www.ecs.org/clearinghouse/78/24/7824.pdf excerpt: Instructional days and hours refer to the amount of time students are expected to attend in a school year. Since the 1980s, the trend has been to increase the minimum number of instructional days (or hours) that students are in school: Fifteen states have increased the minimum number of instructional days while only nine states have reduced that minimum. While state requirements vary on the number of instructional days and hours in the year, the majority of states set the school year at 180 days (30 states). Eleven states set the minimum number of instructional days between 160 and 179 days, and two states set the minimum above 180 days (Kansas and Ohio). Finally, eight states currently do not set a minimum number of instructional days. Instead, the school year in these states is measured in numbers of hours. more on edit: this source seems to have updated data through 2021: https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/required-school-days-by-state
lol 75,600 minutes is 180 7 hours days exactly. Good grief. 8 AM - 3 PM... just like my HS was. What's your point? I don't buy the teachers as martyrs myth that is perpetuated here and elsewhere. Why do you keep engaging with me? If you want to talk it out, we can talk it out, if you don't move along sonny.
Okay, but students are not Teachers. You realize that right. Teachers are working way more than their time in front of students. By your thinking, lawyers are only working when they are in the court room. Professional athletes are only working when they are on the court/field playing the game. Surgeons only work when they are operating on someone. Welders are only working when they are welding. The rest of the time does not count as working in your world. You still haven’t addressed the fact that the base salary in Texas for a starting teacher is 33k a year. You won’t recognize that teachers are working beyond their required hours You won’t recognize peoples real world experience actually doing the job you profess to know so much about. Just answer this question for me.If you are so smart why are you not teaching? You have all the answers, why are you not teaching. It’s an easy high paying job according to you. Why are you not doing it? You ignore all my other points and keep hammering student contact days like that proves something. Just answer my question on why you, the smartest person here, isn’t a teacher, sharing their vast knowledge.
Correct. I've never represented the only time teachers are working is from school bell to school bell but you've represented that teachers (who don't coach) show up an hour before the school bell and leave two hours after the school bell. That's merely your assertion and anecdotal. Maybe somedays that's true. Maybe somedays the teacher shows up 30 minutes before school and leaves 30 minutes after. Every teacher is different and there is no uniformity to it. I never asserted or implied anything of the sort. I never tried to deduct lunch breaks or the 5 minutes between classes from a teacher work day. This is nonsense. This is a very low salary. I wish those who made it would make more. You're cherry picking the very lowest salary though. That's disingenuous. I never cherry picked the very highest salary. I looked at starting salaries at school districts in Houston, this is a Houston based forum and using Houston schools makes sense for discussion purposes, I looked at Klein and Cy-Fair, the two closest to where I grew up, teaching jobs that are fairly ordinary and accessible to most anyone. Those teachers start at $60k and go up from there. I don't think that's a bad living for a job with 13 weeks off. Sure I do. I have many times in our discussions. I just don't take your statements regarding the amount of time as gospel. It's very difficult to quantify how many hours over teachers work because every teacher is different and puts in a different amount of time outside of school hours. I just don't take your highest estimates as gospel. Why would I take what you say as gospel? I take everyone's claim to work XXX many hours with a grain of salt. It's a very common exaggeration and with teachers there's no real way to account for it other then "believe me bro." I don't want to teach. I don't think I would like it as a profession. However, I don't think I'd like 99% of the jobs in this world. Most jobs suck. I never said it was easy. I never said it was high paying. You're just making so much crap up. I'd love for you to go find where I said any of those things. Just because I recognize the perks of another job and think it's by and large fairly compensated, doesn't mean I want to do that job or think it's high paying or easy. I hope you're not responsible for logic or critical thinking. 13 weeks off a year is great. $60k doesn't strike me as underpaid when I consider level of skill required, benefits, 13 weeks off and other factors. That doesn't mean I think it's a walk in the park dream job for lazy bums. Good grief. What a bunch of projection. I can't wait to see you dig up the quotes for the things you've said I've said. I'll hang up and listen.
You obviously know no teachers. This is some ignorant BS. I’ve done the math multiple times for my friends who are coaches and my wife who is a fine arts director. It actually comes out to about 6 dollars an hour… for the year. Plus the relationship and family stress of the other spouse basically being a single parent for 6 months out of the year. Plus the fact that every teacher I know has had a situation where a kid has done something beyond what corporate America can prepare you for. My wife has had TWO kids attempt suicide when she has found them, and had a group of kids record her multiple times trying to find her saying inappropriate things (they weren’t) and sending them to the principle and the news…. All because she didn’t cast them in the fall show. Being a teacher sucks and they do it because they are better people than you and me most of the time. Show some F-ing respect.
Laughing because of his perspective of how little he thinks teacher actually work…. Yeah. Super respectful and not ignorant at all.
his overall point seems to be that you can't generalize about teachers. I come from a family of teachers, father was a h.s. principal, mom did special ed, daughter does 8th grade science. (I teach but not public school.) Nothing HTM is saying is out of line. There are good school districts and bad, good teachers and bad, good principals and bad, good work environments and bad, efficient teachers and inefficient teachers--and through it all, teachers can pick up and leave if conditions where they teach are intolerable. Sounds like maybe there are some unhappy teachers here who would be better off doing something else. Or maybe they're good at disguising their ennui from their students . . . at least I hope so.
Fine you say you need something to back up my 50 hours a week. Here https://www.forbes.com/sites/nickmo...s-works-60-plus-hours-a-week/?sh=d522b581050d Sorry its going to require some reading https://www.scholastic.com/teachers/articles/teaching-content/teachers-work-nearly-11-hour-days/ I edited it to have another example of teachers working hours in the US. You talk about me cherry picking the lowest salary. . .. No, I stated, with a citation mind you, the base salary in Texas. Sorry its low and does not fit your narrative. Here it is again https://tea.texas.gov/texas-educators/salary-and-service-record/2020-2021-minimum-salary-schedule You keep mentioning 60k a year. According to this salary schedule, which is the state mandated schedule, it would only take you 20 years in the profession to be $5,500 away from your cherry picked salary. It also appears that I need to apologize for approaching this overall discussion about teachers away from your happy home of Houston. Didn't realize we had to stay within the two districts you are closest too, but I am the one cherry picking, Got it. I don't think you are reading what I am typing, I never said 50 hours a week was my highest estimate it was actually on the low end. I told you what my week looks like, is it anywhere near what I told you the low end was? Go back and read. I was shooting low. That article above validates that I was right. Sure teaching can look fairly compensated when you have a super narrow scope from which to pull your information and don't look at the overall big picture of what is actually going on. Teachers in some districts of New York City make over 100k a year, while teachers in Montana can make less than 30k. Yet according to you in this thread teachers make 60k. Even after I and others have told you first hand experience to the contrary, you continue to make this claim. But, our experience does not outweigh you 5 min google search. I have now twice provided you with evidence supporting what I am saying, but its me that lacks logic and critical thinking. . . . . . I have shown you your own states salary schedule, but you cherry pick 2 districts and that is the stone cold truth. Two final points and then I am done. You have zero knowledge of what it is to be a teacher, yet want to come off as knowing if teaching is a job with a good compensation package and amazing perks. You have never done it, or received a paycheck, or dove into those great perks. ( I pay over $500 a month for a high deductible family health plan, great perk there) Its all assumptions and half hearted research on your part, and that is supposed to outweigh my 15 plus years in the profession, observing and working with hundreds of teachers. I have taken part in negotiations for salary and benefits. I have been on a building committee that is trying to get a 100 year old building replaced through bonds. I have worked with other teachers, attended conferences on my own time and dime. I use my own cash to make sure I have supplies and even food for kids in my classroom. Taking and paying for extra classes to make sure I can stay up to date on my content area. You are going to tell me we are overfunded, and have a nicely compensated job with great perks. You, the non contributing sideline watcher is going to tell me what is what about compensation of teachers as a whole. You mentioned the level of skill required, what is that? In your mind what is the level of skill required? What is the level of skill we possess? You don't know, you have no clue what it takes to do this job yet assume to know. The arrogance and ignorance of that statement is astounding. Which sums up our conversation. A person with no practical or working knowledge comes onto a message board and tells those who actually do the job how fair their compensation and perks are. You even go so far as to say we act like martyrs. I am not a martyr, I am a teacher that cares enough to do it, not because its easy but because its needed and necessary. You don't have the knowledge, experience, authority or right to tell me one thing about my compensation or perks.
Yet all he has done is generalize teachers ,salary, time commitment, time off, and skill level. Me thinks you are not in tune with his argument if that's what you have pulled from this.
Why are you so threatened by perspectives or opinions that don't align with your own? Stop being such a fascist. If you don't agree with me, take the time to explain why you don't or move along. I'm happy to engage in good faith discourse and will do my best to respond, within reasonable time constraints and keeping in mind how many folks I'm trying to engage with.
I haven't been disrespectful. Taking the position that you think teachers, by and large, are appropriately compensated, especially when looking around my local area (I've looked at 5 Houston area school districts now and see they all basically pay the same) or that 13 weeks off is a great benefit isn't insulting to anyone. That's all in your head. I think teachers do wonderful work and I think it's a hard job. That doesn't mean I think there's no limit to what an appropriate compensation package looks like, and that, of course, factors in 13 weeks of vacation.
