Not every system is fixed by free market dynamics and economics. Profit-driven enterprises are, value-driven ones are not. The notion behind vouchers is, eseentially, that public schools just need a fire lit behind them to get moving, like a weak company. Survival of the fittest. From my experience in public schools, it is one hell of a lot more complicated than "these people just need to get their s--- together." There are really complicated reasons some public schools do poorly. And yes, some bad ones would perish under the voucher system, but the human watse that would result from that is unacceptable -- as it is now -- and it would not fix the problem. It's not really even lack of funding, so much as pushing sqaure pegs through round holes, thanks to an educational structure reliant on social and economic forces that do not exist in some communities. Property taxes funding local public school is a hilariously conspicuous way of denying poor folks equal access to education. Why not just call the schools names like Jim Crow Jr. High? The Strom Thurmond School For The Deservedly Impoverished? Too much. That and the classes/schools are too big. If people in favor of vouchers can show me a pilot study, or some sort of relaible social science that indicates that vouchers are an effective way to improve a school district, I'll be happy to look. Vouchers are like armchair educational reform to me, I have never seen anything like it that has worked. I could be wrong, though, i have not really been reading up on it lately. Anyone have an opinion that comes from somewhere other than the top of their head on this? "Seems Like a Good Idea" and "I Personally Think" are sort of turnoffs to me in terms of discussing the ramifications and projecting the efficacy of far reaching social programs these days.
Chucky is correct QUestion: If these 'private' schools are using effective techniques . . .why can they not work in public schools? The problem with Public Schools is various red tapes Why not just cut that . . .stream line it give teacher MORE leeway in the Private sector. . . let's say [and I can honestly see this happeneing] McDonalds funds a school. . .and ONLY SERVE MacDonalds food and teach them that their food is the most nutritious and tastee What do you do? Esp if they have a D*MN FINE SCIENCE and COMPUTER DEPARTMENT If you do Vouchers. . all it does is help rich folx save money on thier kids tuition the number of kids that actually end up at these privates schools that are not in it now . . . .will be minimal and I GUARANTEE that there will be a wave of cheap knock off get in and get a dollar *ss schools spring up and the competition crowd will just say SOME JUST HAVE TO BE SACRIFICE those in those crap schools will JUST HAVE TO SUFFER until the system rights itself BTW - as stated before look at the Mental Health Adult Day Care system before they started heavy regulations again as your model People basicaly took those mentalley challenged people dropped them in a room for 8 hours and got their voucher for 1000$ a day or some thing like that Many in that field made out like BANDITS for YEARS Rocket River
twhy, did you go to a public school? Assuming you didn't, how can you say that our money is wasted on public schools if you have no experience with them, as a kid going to them and as a parent sending his kids to them. This country is constantly held up as a standard for other countries to aspire to. And guess what... the overwheming majority of kids in this country went to public schools. I find it facinating that this discussion is being portrayed by some as a liberal versus conservative argument. My conservative Republican sister, retired after teaching in public schools for 30 years, thinks vouchers are one of the worst ideas to come down the pike in a long time. She thinks that the quality of education in schools is uneven, that the low salaries of teachers contributes to that a great deal, and that both those problems can be fixed with better administration, better funding (see "TAXES", that dirty word), and moving away from that REPUBLICAN mantra of our dear President... endless testing of the students... to the point that many subjects get lip service in class, not because the teachers don't want to teach them, but because the're required to spend so much damned time preparing the kids for the damned tests so the school and district will look good.
What, by the way, would be a salary that a teacher deserves? Just wondering because I hear this complaint a lot that teachers are underpaid. I was wondering what people, generally speaking, though their salaries should be. What would it take, dollarwise, to get them to the salaries they deserve? Just curious what people's opinions of a proper salary for teachers would be. For me, I'm not a fan of vouchers. We have, as a society, decided to offer public education, and I think public education works better when the neighborhood is involved. The more kids you take out of the school system, the worse the system is going to work, in my opinion. My kids go to public schools, and I believe they are getting an education on par with, if not better than, any private schools in their area. Do many public school districts need an upgrade? Sure, but I don't believe that injecting competition into the equation will help. Bureaucracies don't tend to respond well to competition. I would think we'd simply see taxes get higher and education get worse overall. But that's just my opinion as a Republicanish-type of person.
Not only did I go to public schools, but my mom has taught at them for 25 years. I also work for a company interested in raising the standards of education, more specifically accreditation; especially in the realm of getting a solid liberal education background. Now, I made no mention of vouchers, I simply said charter schools were a good idea, which I think they are. I don't really know how vouchers work so I refrained from commenting on them, but wanted to add that education is a sham these days, standards are down and standardized testing is in, which makes no sense to me.
Well it would vary from region to region based on cost of living but I imagine a typical suburban teacher in Texas with 5-10 yrs of experience should garner 45,000-50,000$ a year. Of course, each school district is different.
The ability to raise a family in a middle class enviorment, along with benefits comparable to those of equally underpaid state employees. I'll turn it around... what do you think would enable teachers to do that? I'm not talking about being able to afford a 150K house, I'm talking about just having a decent living. My sister, after 30 years, and with a masters in English, was making less than 40K, if I remember correctly. Do you think that's fair, to the teachers and the students, who deserve the best teachers we can get?
So, do you think Bush is wrong with his fixation on testing? And I'm surprised that being another person, like me, who grew up around educators, that you would find our educational system "a sham". What do you base that on?
That's not a good salary at all. My gf just graduated in December with her education degree and just started looking for a job for the Fall. Her first offer was for over $39K to start, and that was without the slight Masters degree bump (she's currently working on her MA, but she doesn't have it yet). In that particular district (Fort Worth ISD), a person with 30+ years experience and a masters would get over $59K. My local school district (Plano), I believe pays $55K after 20 years experience. I'm sure there are districts around the state that pay a lot less than that (my gf interviewed in Quinlan, for example, which is a small town in Hunt County, and their starting first-year pay was something like 32K).
Well I think Bush might agree with us to some extent; I don't think either of us neccessarily saying there should be *no* testing. Its just that teaching should not be geared towards tests; but it neccessitates that way when so much funding follows test scores.
mrpaige, I could be off a lot, without making a phone call to be sure. I know she didn't make enough for her education and experience, and that my brother-in-law is without insurance because it's too expensive for them. (and that was before retirement... he's not working because of a medical problem, so he doesn't get coverage from his job) I'm so ancient that I may be mixing up her salary from years ago, when she was underpaid back then.
No, my mom was at about 34K with over 20yrs experience; complete crap seeing as they were hiring teachers at 35K. The problem lies in that they refuse a lot of old teachers salary bumps simply so they won't collect more in their pension and social security. They are trying to drive the old teachers out.
You've got that right. My sister was offered an incentive to retire early, similar to what they are offering state employees here in Texas, but not nearly as generous. And, get this, Texas teachers are ineligible for Social Security unless they spent some time in the private sector. And many teachers, starting their career right out of college, have little experience there. So they can't draw it. We end up losing our best, most experienced teachers, to early retirement or just leaving to go into the private sector to earn a living wage.
No crap, my mom got lucky and found Sweeny ISD which has a loophole where teachers can get their pensions and social security, so she has to drive and hour and a half up there to work one day as a janitor. Demeaning to someone who gave their whole life to teach.
My mom, at the height of her career as the head of secondary guidance counseling for HISD (one of the largest school districts in the country) made under $50K per year. That was a job as an administrator. My father, at the height of his 37-year career as a teacher, made under $40K per year. That is not even close to realisic considering the marketplace and, more importantly, the amount of work required from teachers. My parents routinely spent MANY extra hours working extra-cirricular activities, grading papers, talking with students, etc. IMO, if you want to start getting better teachers, make entry-level pay around $35,000 per year and teachers to clear as much as $75,000 at the peak of their careers. Someone working a job for nearly 40 years and never making more than $40K per year is ridiculous. Considering the fact that these people are educating our children makes it moreso.
