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Breaking 1-06-21: MAGA terrorist attack on Capitol

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by RESINator, Jan 6, 2021.

  1. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    They didn't cause that, our reaction caused that. But that's probably just semantics. Yes, that was dangerous. I didn't suggest that there wasn't danger from terrorism.
     
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  2. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    They have some areas where they can be compared.
     
  3. NewRoxFan

    NewRoxFan Contributing Member

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    As opposed to those here who are suggesting there was not a significant danger caused by the January 6 insurgency as incited, supported, and defended by trump and his enablers...
     
  4. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    terrorism caused our reaction. Our reaction is a proximate cause; terrorism is an ultimate cause. ;)

    The point though is that the loss of civil liberties occasioned by post-terrorism reactions--and loss of life in the wars--in my view is probably a "greater threat to democracy" than the Jan 6 riots have been.
     
  5. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Understood. But loss of our democracy would be the ultimate loss of our liberties not the chipping away that we see from terrorism.
     
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  6. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    I don't think there was any genuine risk of loss of our democracy posed by the Jan 6 riot
     
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  7. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    Uhm... I have to disagree.

    There was a valid election. It was fair and free.
    The sitting president claimed falsely that it was illegitimate and unfair. Many citizens feel the election was fraudulent. Their trust in elections has eroded. When citizens no longer feel the need to abide by election results, our democracy is absolutely threatened. We have already seen in California's recall that one of the losers claimed it was a fraudulent vote before the vote was even counted. That was also a false claim that some people believed.

    We had a sitting president knowingly pushing the false idea that the election was rigged. He attempted to persuade officials to do abuse their power to change the results. Many citizens weren't concerned and supported the effort.

    Do you believe that if a Democratic candidate wins the next presidential election, everyone will believe it was free and fair?
     
  8. Amiga

    Amiga I get vaunted sacred revelations from social media
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    I think we can't just judge on effectiveness. Intent and the energy behind it are as important. Lesson learned from the failure of today is used for tomorrow.

    I would say there is a much greater genuine risk of loss of our democracy post 1/6. However, that's a high bar. The easier path is a trend toward an authoritarian government with a defunct democracy.

    Prior to 1/6 and during Trump terms, we already see it in the refusal to hold high office accountable to abuse of gov power done in public and private. After 1/6, there was almost a black and white choice. You are either for it or against it. In a way, you are either for or against the driving force behind 1/6 - the Big Lie. Republicans initially were shaken up but ultimately decided to be for it. You can skin it whatever way you want to, but the effect of 1/6 has crystalized the Republican Party into the Trump Party. We see it in Republican leadership pushing out, canceling members that didn't go along with the Big Lie or that argued against it publicly. We also see it in the ranges of new voter laws that legalize new anti-democracy trends from new restrictions to political power for the first time having the ability to directly manage the outcome of elections. And we see it in the effect of leadership not pushing back on the Big Lie - 70% of Republicans believe in it.

    So, while 911 caused loss of liberties and 1/6 hasn't. What 1/6 has is caused a quick and extreme swing to the anti-democratic, pro-authoritarian trend. Losing democracy would be the ultimate end of civil liberties. Transition into an authoritarian form of government isn't far behind.
     
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  9. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    well . . . here's approximately where I stand on these various topics.

    Trump was a bonehead. It's good that he's gone. I don't particularly worry that many citizens feel the election was fraudulent. I don't particularly care about their trust in elections, eroded or not. Even after the California recall, when the dust settles, life moves on. Jan 6 dust has settled, life has moved on.

    Again, on the sitting president and claims of rigged elections, Trump was a bonehead. It's good that he's gone.

    As far as the next Democratic candidate's win . . . who cares what people will believe re: free and fair? to paraphrase Jesus, you will always have the poor and disgruntled among you. They will get over it--as the Jan 6 sore losers eventually will.

    The system has survived. The nation has survived. Democracy has survived. The system works and is strong.

    Bigger threats to democracy in the past include McCarthyism and the forced internment of racial and ethnic groups during wartime. Two hours of a bunch of rioters getting past undermanned and unprepared police (and yes, I know there were injuries, some serious) only to take a bunch of selfies, a lecturn, and Pelosi's staffer's powerpoint presentation laptop, does not a "threat to democracy" make. but that's just me. your mileage may vary. You may think Jan 6 was the apocalypse.
     
  10. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    You're certainly entitled to your opinion on people believing the elections are fair, but disbelief in the lack of elections leads to more violence, decreased participation, which means citizens with less say in governing, unwillingness to abide by laws set forward because they don't believe those creating or enforcing them are in their positions rightfully.

    So I feel like it matters a great deal whether legitimate elections are seen as being legitimate.
     
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  11. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    I don't believe it leads to decreased participation . . . more voters participated in the last election than ever. I don't really see that changing as long as Trump is breathing. He is the great motivator, on both sides.

    And as far as elections being seen as legitimate, I'm not really worried about the folks who think the election was rigged . . . they're basically boneheads too. By the same token I don't worry about flat-earthers either. Like I said, the dust has cleared, life has moved on, and the system is still working. I don't think Biden's doing a particularly good job at the moment of leading the system, but it's not all his fault. Pelosi and Schumer are doing their best to shoot themselves in the feet.

    You know what was a real threat to democracy? the American Civil War. There you had an actual insurrection.

    Nazi Germany was also a real threat to democracy. Big-horned shaman guy (or whatever they call that guy) and the guy with his feet on Pelosi's desk? not so much
     
  12. Andre0087

    Andre0087 Member

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    Sharing your innermost thoughts and feelings about politics? Surprised...
     
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  13. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    @FranchiseBlade is never insulting. you should not be surprised
     
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  14. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    I would like to share your optimism. I have some following thoughts. Jan 6 might very well be an isolated event. What's still up in the air is how we're handling its aftermath, whether there will be people thrown in jail in order to reaffirm the political process and update its safeguards.

    The fact that Trump's outcome still hinged upon10-20 key players is a bit chilling to me, one that took several dominoes to fall in. Sure Trump would still have an uphill battle if Pence and GA AG fell in line with subverting the popular vote, but he would have undeniable momentum to get the stragglers of his party in line.

    It's casts an awful pall over the state of partisanship, especially in light of how Senate rolled over and enabled his behavior. They even cast down a Cheney for her supposed betrayal.

    Trump crashed his rental by going mental...the bumper can be replaced and a new paint job can be reapplied. But who has paid for it to deter people from doing it again?

    Is the overreaching executive an ongoing slippery slope freedom lovin Americans willing to swallow?
     
  15. FranchiseBlade

    FranchiseBlade Contributing Member
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    I agree that the Jan. 6 group isn't a huge threat in and of themselves. Our government is better able to handle a potential civil war. But why risk anything close to one? The Civil War didn't start with nothing one day and full scale war the next. There were violent skirmishes and people talking about the illegitimacy of the government first.
     
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  16. dmoneybangbang

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    But conservatives still don’t believe in democratic elections?

    But conservatives are rewriting the laws where you are losing support in historically conservative states?

    Why can’t cry baby Trump tell the country he lost fair and square?

    Jan 6 is part of a larger power play.
     
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  17. dmoneybangbang

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    Jan 6 is part of a bigger issue IMO.
     
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  18. Os Trigonum

    Os Trigonum Contributing Member
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    why should I care about whomever you are labeling as "conservatives"? I don't really think that label is accurately applied (for the most part) in this forum
     
  19. StupidMoniker

    StupidMoniker I lost a bet
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    They both involve people. They happened during the daytime. People were injured. The response was out of proportion to the inciting incident. The perpetrators were delusional morons. Iconic buildings were involved. They happened on earth. Most events have some means by which they can be compared, yes. Anyone that thinks the January 6, 2021 riot was in any meaningful way more devastating than the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks is either stupid or disingenuous.
     
  20. Agent94

    Agent94 Member

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    I would be worried with our society if 60 million people believed the earth was flat. Politicians are currently perpetuating lies and actively working to undermine democracy. The dust has not settled on the movements that converged on 1/6. We can look back 20 years later and see where 9/11 took us. This could be worse, it could be better, but it's not over.
     
    #3820 Agent94, Sep 24, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021

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