I'm pro-choice too. Lol. But when you run specific scenarios, to me, the logic makes perfect sense. What if the entire staff at a hospital refused the vaccine? You'd eventually have a hospital with incredibly limited staff. Why are some hospitals being overrun with sick patients, stressing the staff? Is it necessary? What happens when you have a school of 50 teachers. Only 5 get vaccinated. The rest are eventually out sick, and the lone 5 have to shoulder the burden? What if you're in the NBA. 6 players are vaccinated, 6 are not. They all test positive. They'll all be out due to league protocols, but the vaccinated will likely test negative sooner, not get as sick, and be back much sooner. What if you're a healthcare pro at a nursing home? On a societal level it's hard to compute. But within your own social circles, it's pretty simple. I'm not going to get mad at anyone that refuses the vaccine. As long as they don't spread misinformation and anti-vax sentiment onto others.
I get your point and I don't disagree with it, but once again, this scenario is assuming that if you're vaccinated and get covid, you're not quarantining. Like I said, while I think you raise valid points, and I agree with it, I think it further emphasizes the post you quoted.
.... I know you're smarter than that. Those two statements are not the same thing. This is an example of the reason many can't have a valid discussion on this thing. There's so many muddled areas. Nothing is black and white. But most people can't exist beyond a binary way of thinking.
A few things, as of today (things can change) 1- Vaccinated do not infect others at the same rate but a much lower rate. You are less likely to be infected. When infected, your cultured viral load (that you can expel and cause other infection) is much less and your immune system kill off the virus at a much faster rate. 2- Variants depends on the spread and at that very high level, mass vaccination / infected equate to less chance of variant 3- I probably am not understanding your last sentence. Being non-vaccinated at least double your risk of being infected and drastically increase your risk of long covid, severe outcome, and death from covid.
Not sure when that was posted, but please post the whole quote. Also, with the black and white thing. We're not allowed to have changing viewpoints on this? I know mine change by the week...As does the science sometimes...
Vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals have similar viral loads in communities with a high prevalence of the SARS-CoV-2 delta variant Kasen K. Riemersma, Brittany E. Grogan, Amanda Kita-Yarbro, Gunnar E. Jeppson, David H. O’Connor, View ORCID ProfileThomas C. Friedrich, Katarina M. Grande https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.31.21261387v1 My last sentence of that post meant that people get vaccinated, and then feel they're all clear. Instead,they're taking more chances than ever before and basically eliminating the lesser chance of catching covid. (Albeit, they won't be as sick) My main point is that there is a ton of misinformation out there. As we all know. Things are confusing. New things are learned every day. But we need to quit hiding behind the vaccine as the answer to everything. It's the answer to a lot of things, yes. It's great. It will help society a ton. But if someone brings up the downfall of the vaccine, we shouldn't get defensive. We also should keep up with the science. Most people do not. Or they're just following the mainstream news. Let's all be better about this.
The main issue I've had with the rollout of the vaccine is there most certainly is a subset of the population that can't get this vaccine (probably less than a % like other vaccines) and the messaging is "just get it". I know personally of someone who took the vaccine - while not being able to get other vaccines due to adverse reactions in the past and had anaphylactic shock - they recovered after a hospital stay but were told no to the 2nd shot. Again, this is a very rare case, and while I've personally taken the vaccine and am for vaccines, - if the person is in the % that can't actually get the vaccine or has been authorized against it by a Dr, then why are people/media grouping them in like they're antivax/condemning them? I mean there's always been some percent of the population that really can't get a vaccine and now suddenly we're going to shame them/act like this is a new thing? I mean before covid in the past if someone couldn't get a vaccine but 95%+ (depending on the vaccine could) - then that means herd immunity/protecting others is still working, but now suddenly the message is "get it or else". If anything it's lead to more people thinking they're in the percent that shouldn't get it/lead to hesitancy etc.
The answer is because there's a real problem in this country with binary thinking. Black and white. Left or right. Republican or Democrat. Vaxxer or Anti-vaxxer. CNN or Fox. Nobody wants to think for themselves and come up with nuanced opinions. And if they do, they don't have the ability to separate from their own viewpoints and see the world as an evolving, complicated thing, inhabited by even more complex beings. Queue up @KingCheetah pointing out how contradictory that whole post sounds by using ellipses...lol
I've been closely watching Israel/research papers and I think it's a very interesting point on the spread, ie if the person is vaccinated and they are full on asymptomatic with a breakthrough infection, they can probably spread it a lot easier - by going more places/more risky vs someone who's unvaccinated that's less likely to be asymptomatic during the whole infection. I still don't like how this virus presents itself with the ability to spread in a person who's asymptomatic, I mean when things opened back up and people were doing temperature checks at the door, sure... it might catch some people who were really sick but some were most likely already shedding the virus and didn't even know, that's why I am starting to think most likely a high percentage have had some form of exposure by now or will soon.
That was early on. It didn't make sense at the time but data is data (however, we shouldn't throw out basic vaccine knowledge). More recently, data shows that cultured viral load (can spread) is much lower, and what remains gets killed at a faster rate. That finding makes much more sense with the basic of how vaccine works. Right, if you are vaccinated, you aren't 100% protective. That probably confuses some people when Phase3 trials show that level of protection against hospitalization and death. That high of a standard is not what we were ever after (everyone can't be 100% protective). It's a standard setup for failure. No vaccine in the world is 100% protective. But overall, covid vaccine are very protective.
That was from July 31st, and last I can see, is awaiting peer review. Part of me is wondering if this study may, in fact, highlight the need for a booster shot. It could be because of waning protection, no? I'm honestly not sure..
Yeah, I think your post above is absolutely correct though, read the research directly/educate yourself etc. Don't just rely on media/fb etc. and learn to limit confirmation bias to make your own educated decisions. And keep building on it because we're still learning new things daily. I can't stand the media spin trash and political side it has all taken, like the damn virus isn't going to care what politics you follow. I've been fortunate to have a background in science/math, so it definitely helps speed up the process reading direct research/peer reviews etc vs relying on cnn/fox/whoever to put some extra spin on something that really doesn't need it. I got frustrated the other day listening to someone make some claim how if polio/measles were a new virus it wouldn't get eradicated in this day and age etc. because of the misinformation. It's bs because those are completely different vs a coronavirus - especially with the mutations and the asymptomatic spread covid has had.
Yes, from 7/31. The newer data was more recent, from last week I think. For booster, I'm personally not there given what I've read. Booster for those > 65, with weak immune system, in health care settings that can't afford to have a breakthrough infection - sure. Everyone else, I'm not convinced. I think there is a good chance that when we know more, none is needed for everyone else.
A major caveat of that paper is that the samples are provided by a large laboratory that provides covid testing for local health departments. Most people that go to testing sites are already experiencing symptoms, otherwise they wouldn't go get tested. So it's more correct to say that a vaccinated individual who has a breakthrough infection with severe enough symptoms to trigger someone to go get tested has similar viral loads as an unvaccinated person who has severe enough symptoms to go get tested. Vaccination increases the chances someone would be asymptomatic or seeing very light symptoms. The viral loads of those people are not captured in this paper.
At the very least, I think you're still helping others by keeping down the overall hospital caseload. I believe most of the people being hospitalized nowadays are still primarily unvaccinated, which means less hospital resources for people with non-covid related emergencies and sicknesses. My understanding regarding the infecting others at the same rate is something that is more unique to the delta variant, and wasn't the case for previous versions. I believe with original version/alpha version being vaccinated was able to help reduce the spread. Also not sure if the length of time a vaccinated person can spread the virus is the same as for unvaccinated? Perhaps the most interesting thing about covid is how fairly unique it is. The amount and type of symptoms that it can cause are all over the map, the incubation period is pretty long, and the mortality rate seems to be at just the right level to cause spreading without killing off all the hosts too quickly. Although I understand where you're coming from around wanting people to be more educated, I think that's just not realistic with the current state of society. It's really better to try and spread a simple, general, broad message, rather than try to explain all the caveats. People who are willing to take horse dewormer as a miracle cure really aren't going to take the time to read between the lines and try to understand all of the nuances of the disease, the variants, and the vaccines.
I’ve never heard that messaging - I know of a few that had such severe reactions to the first dose that they as well were told to not get the second dose. That’s exactly why everybody else that CAN should get vaccinated - there are portions of our population that are very much exposed and can’t do anything about it (kids, immunocompromised, severe reactions to vax).
