Would you be in favor of sending troops back?

"People" aren't criticizing him so much as major media outlets are. Media outlets that live to serve as stenographers for the war party.

 

So the plot of interstellar.

 

I don’t think the US has the capacity to stabilize Afghanistan. And I don’t support establishing permanent military presence in other countries to impose our brand of “stabilization” on them.

We need to work with the authorities there (now, Talibani officials) to try to minimize brutality and reprisals against Afghan people. We need to do whatever we can to pull out those who are under threat because they worked with us. The Taliban will certainly resist this, because they want to send a harsh message that working with “outsiders” against them deserves punishment. Allowing them to escape unscathed undercuts that message. I don’t know how the US will pull that off.

 

Notible that there isnt a single "send them back" vote from anyone at the moment. Usually at least onr person votes against the group just to be contrarian.

 

We almost did. The Taliban tried to surrender shortly after the war started, but the Bush admin was having none of that. Instead, they diverted the US military focus toward some really shinny objects in Iraq.

Bush started it and he fk it up very early on with diversion toward Iraq. No president since until Trump dared to correct that mistake. Too bad he negotiated a one-way deal with the Taliban. Still, he and Biden made the right long-term policy call to exit. The short-term pain of the bad execution is obvious but it's clearly the right thing to do with strong support on both political sides. As of now, it's more about politics than actual disagreement on what to do and with that, few probably noticed that Biden is actually now doing a very good job of correcting the initial execution mistake - they have already evacuated more than 20k people without a single American death. Soon this nightmare will be over and we can stay focus on other things that are so much more important, like Delta at home that is now again killing over 1K per day.

 

There is no way to provide stabilization in Afghanistan. People here in the US are ignorant of the fact that there are several different groups that'll be challenging the Taliban regardless if the US is there or not. Without the US there it'll just expedite Civil War. The Taliban will be the most powerful group right now, but it's inevitable that they'll be challenged even with legitimization.

The most likely scenario IMO will be after the Civil War that there's likely a Sadam or Assad type of strongman who offers some stability through brutality that ends up running the country in the best case scenario. Under worst case scenario, there is no uniting and there is civil war among the warlords for eternity.

There's also the option of the world stepping in with the different factions to further break up the country into smaller countries. That'll take all the neighboring countries like Pakistan, Iran, and China likely allied with countries within the country.

.....

But NO the US should not surge troops in again with the hope of stabilization and then magically a better Afghanistan appears when the US is ready to leave again. The only answer is to get as many people out of there as possible before the Civil war heats up, and they blow themselves to pieces for years on end.

 

Good summary of what to think about the Afghan debacle.
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2021/08/21/lessons-us-will-probably-not-learn-afghanistan

 

Hard no.

 

great article. Especially the part about Vietnam. Even most the Vietnamese people in the US that were there don't really understand what went down. All they know is that they lost their homes.

 

Paging the General. @Gioan Baotixita

 

Correct answer:
Drones
Lots of them

 

I served in Afghanistan as a US Marine, twice. Here’s the truth in two sentences

https://www.yahoo.com/news/served-afghanistan-us-marine-twice-100000389.html

What we are seeing in Afghanistan right now shouldn’t shock you. It only seems that way because our institutions are steeped in systematic dishonesty. It doesn’t require a dissertation to explain what you’re seeing. Just two sentences.

One: For 20 years, politicians, elites and D.C. military leaders lied to us about Afghanistan.

Two: What happened last week was inevitable, and anyone saying differently is still lying to you.


I know because I was there. Twice. On special operations task forces. I learned Pashto as a U.S. Marine captain and spoke to everyone I could there: everyday people, elites, allies and yes, even the Taliban.

The truth is that the Afghan National Security Forces was a jobs program for Afghans, propped up by U.S. taxpayer dollars — a military jobs program populated by nonmilitary people or “paper” forces (that didn’t really exist) and a bevy of elites grabbing what they could when they could.

You probably didn’t know that. That’s the point.

And it wasn’t just in Afghanistan. They also lied about Iraq.

I led a team of Marines training Iraqi security forces to defend their country. When I arrived I received a “stoplight” chart on their supposed capabilities in dozens of missions and responsibilities. Green meant they were good. Yellow was needed improvement; red said they couldn’t do it at all.

I was delighted to see how far along they were on paper — until I actually began working with them. I attempted to adjust the charts to reflect reality and was quickly shut down. The ratings could not go down. That was the deal. It was the kind of lie that kept the war going.

So when people ask me if we made the right call getting out of Afghanistan in 2021, I answer truthfully: Absolutely not. The right call was getting out in 2002. 2003. Every year we didn’t get out was another year the Taliban used to refine their skills and tactics against us — the best fighting force in the world. After two decades, $2 trillion and nearly 2,500 American lives lost, 2021 was way too late to make the right call.

You’d think when it all came crumbling down around them, they’d accept the truth. Think again.

War-hungry hawks are suggesting our soldiers weren’t in harm’s way. Well, when I was there, two incredible Marines in my unit were killed.

Elitist hacks are even blaming the American people for what happened this week. The same American people that they spent years lying to about Afghanistan. Are you kidding me?

We deserve better. Instead of politicians spending $6.4 trillion to “nation build” in the Middle East, we should start nation building right here at home.

I can’t believe that would be a controversial proposal, but already in Washington, we see some of the same architects of these Middle Eastern disasters balking at the idea of investing a fraction of that amount to build up our own country.

The lies about Afghanistan matter not just because of the money spent or the lives lost, but because they are representative of a systematic dishonesty that is destroying our country from the inside out.

Remember when they told us the economy was back? Another lie.

Our state of Missouri was home to the worst economic recovery from the Great Recession in this part of the country. I see the boarded-up stores and the vacant lots — one of which used to be my family’s home. When our country’s elites were preaching about how they had solved the financial crisis and the housing market was booming, I watched the house I joined the Marine Corps out of sit on the market for two years. My dad finally got $43,000 for it. He owed $78,000.

The only way out is to level with the American people. I’ll start. With the two-sentence truth about what we are seeing in Afghanistan right now:

For 20 years, politicians, elites and D.C. military leaders lied to us about Afghanistan.

What happened last week was inevitable, and anyone saying differently is still lying to you.


T_Man

 

Centuries.

DD

 

I'm okay with using troops to occupy the airport for as long as we need it to remove citizens and allies from the country. But I wouldn't go any further than that.

I gather, though, that the thrust of this thread was to say we should stop criticizing Biden for the ugly pullout because we agree with him that we shouldn't remain. We might agree on that, but he obviously deserves the criticism. From what Milley said, of all the scenario planning they did, they didn't foresee the Afghan government folding so quickly. It was offered as an excuse, but I take it as an admission of failure. The Admin should have known it was possible and should have planned for this eventuality. Fine, people screw up sometimes. But don't say it's not a screw-up.

 

I don’t really see anyone giving a full throated defense of Biden but I get your point. His admin was caught off guard and that’s not good. More than likely you’ll probably see firings from this for good reasons.

But I think the biggest push back rightfully so is on the right who seem to think this is some triumphant moment for them. I don’t have to go into detail with you because you know this, but starting from Bush’s nation building + shiny new object in Iraq to Trumps legitimizing of the Taliban last year with negotiations that put this exact scenario into place, there shouldn’t be any gloating allowed from the folks who supported all of those elements that led to this Afghanistan cluster.

And those same folks need to be pressed to own up to the answer to what they are complaining about which speaks to this thread. The only way you can own the position you do (the right) is if you support sending a surge of troops again… and again. Criticizing is fine but without context it’s just political goobly gock.

 

Exactly. They would NEVER do what they are complaining about Biden not doing. Even now whats crazy is they are trying to stoke that same line (brown people coming!) while also trying to say that Biden needs to be impeached etc. because he's not getting enough people out. Talk about trying to have it both ways.

I see no evidence that Trump wasn't going to pull out anyways, and I don't think even interpreters would have been able to get out under Trump. This crisis under Trump would be far more catastrophic, and would have created much more damage to our reputation around the globe, and would have created more issues in the middle east with refugees. Arab Springs x100.

Biden isn't going to be able to get everyone out, and it sure as hell won't be super orderly, but I would take this approach all day any day over the Trump approach, and I sure as hell would take it over the Classic Republican approach of staying in the middle east for eternity.

 

NGL, I've had thoughts that some of the refugees are more radical than I'd like for any American to be. Whether it'd be fundamentalist leanings against women or whatever.

Syria is nowhere as bad as Afghanistan, but Germany and other countries have been dealing with refugee crises and culture shocks let alone any thoughts for integration.

Bu-bu-but dis is Bidummy fault for not plannin ahead n lettin dem all in@@@

 

Any more radical than this..





T_Man

 

Those Antifa dudes must have spent months watching Duck Dynasty and buying apparel at Bass Pro shops in preparation for those events!