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Shams - Philly offered Simmons/Thybulle + draft compensation. Did we make the right deal?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by ThatBoyNick, Jan 13, 2021.

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Which package would you have prefered?

Poll closed Jan 18, 2021.
  1. Nets package

    177 vote(s)
    50.4%
  2. Phillys package

    174 vote(s)
    49.6%
  1. DonatelloLimestone

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    of course i'd rather have a top 2 pick. I don't think levert is teh difference maker, yet still has more trade value then oladipo. I didn't think oladipo also was that much of a difference maker if you look at his last 2 seasons and how hes been agaiing too.

    Yes, Are you seeing how mid level and contracts rising? I'm not sure people are grasping that allen is starting probably at 17,18 for his first years of his contract....having a guy whose young, block party, double double at the least is a very tradeable deal in this league. Hes making eric Gordon money, better more efficient production, doesnt ned the ball to contribute, and hes early 20s. So once again ,yea its just about keepng the asset alive and I think we'd be better off goign levert and allen and isntead of oladipo and milwaukee bucks pick. Then trade Allen and levert for 2-3 picks andwe're better off right away then what we got for oladipo which was just picking 10 picks higher in the first round and then just let go of kelly and bradley for nothing but savings.
     
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  2. daywalker02

    daywalker02 Member

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    Didn't know Thybulle was Australian and watched his game.
     
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  3. DonatelloLimestone

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    I don't think thats the argument, its the total consolidation of assets

    So instead of the brooklyn first and then milwaukee first. which are all likely to be later first rounders entirely

    maybe phillys 2 picks they were offering, with simmons you could convert in to two more picks too. As you mentioned, right now simmons is at his lowest value and it still wouldn't surprise me to seee him get 2 first which says something

    alternatively the biggest miss since it was one we went through with was not just keeping LEvert and allen.

    Allen is going to start his first two years in the 17-19 million range. Hes in his early 20s, with money growing that will be an easy and good contrat for a guaratneed double double who doesnt demand the ball. Especially the first two years hes very tradeable. If you want to be very very conservative and say we only get a first for flipping him

    Then levert, similar value or probably better than oladipo as hes been better as of late than oladipo. he coudl get a first, landry shamet got a first to put it that way this summer.

    We still do better than whatever we were doing with oladipo who let it be known he wanted to miami and no less after two years of terrible performance.

    Then we take kelly and don't sign him back ,then we take avery bradleys TEAM option and ignore it too.

    in the end, the picks are what matterse bc we are rebuilding but yea it alaways sucks how much we emphasize saving or not takign on exttra money but all in allthis isn't as dire as the situation when harden was around bc we don't need to go all in and try to win, so we can devleop, get our picks, stone has us in a good direction hopefully tilman doesnt force money savings over asset building or not too much at least
     
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  4. J.R.

    J.R. Member

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  5. luckyman76

    luckyman76 Member

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    You seriously don't get it. This isn't just about this year, this is not a rookie, this is a fixed pattern with a player on his second contract. Simmons and CP3 are not comparable in any way, shape or fashion. CP3s problems have been durability. He is elite at everything. This is NOT one year, we have been making the same arguments about Simmons since he entered the NBA and back at LSU. The hope was that he would develop a shot, he did not. It's not dumbfounding. Quit bringing up Green, that's not a good argument either. GSW overpays him because of replacement value to that team. Also, he can shoot. GSW have a PG and every player can create their own offense. This isn't about Wall, this is about how uniquely bad Simmons contract will be going forward at $37M a year. Simmons will never lead a team to a chip with this gaping hole in his game. You have no idea how much Embiid's presence and dominance has masked Simmons weakness on offense. Embiid is an Olajuwon level beast with an outside game. He was MVP level last year before getting injured. That's the reason Simmons is second fiddle. If Butler was still there he wouldn't be second fiddle either. It's not hyperbole or overexcitement to recognize that a player that plays PG that cannot shoot with a $37M a year contract is a catastrophe to a franchise. Take a good look at who he is training with these days. It's not a mental block either, EVERYONE has been saying that Simmons shoots with the wrong hand going back to LSU. Google it if you don't believe me.
     
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  6. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    You'd rather have the no 2 pick you wont get that if you kept Allen and Levert as they are all better players than Dipo. The Rox needed to be bad to ge tthe 2nd pick, fhey wont be as bad with both Allen and Levert. KPJ is better asset than Allen and we only got him by trading Allen. The pick is only top 3 or top 4 protected otherwise it goes to OKC and we get 18th. The couple low picks you keep talking about is nowhere as valuable as Jalen Green so messing that up just to get both Levert and Allen is wrong.

    AGAIN Allen is an expiring, keeping him doesnt make him an asset as he is an EXPIRING. You keep talking about assets but you dont understand what the asset actually is.

    How are you trading Allen for "2-3 picks" when he is an expiring? Cavs been trying to move Allen since they knew Mobley was going to land to them. The most you can get with Allen is a low FRP because one again he is an expiring. You know what expiring contracts are? They leave after the season unless you pay them the most money. So there's no keeping Allen there is only RESIGNING Allen which the Cavs had to do for 20M a year. If we wanted him we could have outbid the Cavs to SIGN him and then it'd be like we kept him for half the season last year except better cuz we didnt actually keep him.

    You keep living in this fantasy dream world where the Rox dont lose anything but somehow keep both Allen and Levert. Thats not reality, we only got KPJ and Green cuz we traded away Levert and Allen, end of story.

    None of this was planned, Stone and co. werent insane geniuses who calculated everything. However the way it worked out was the Rox were better off making that mistake of getting Dipo and jettisoning both Levert and Allen. If they had a do over button they'd do the same thing as getting both Green and KPJ trumps both Allen's expiring and Levert.
     
    #1506 roslolian, Aug 9, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
  7. DonatelloLimestone

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    I guess I just don't agree with that premise. Allen is a walking double double, but he was also in one of the worst teams...it takes a while lot more to win in this league than that, but he CAN contribute to winning but hes not a nucleus or floor raiser like Wb or what not. Lkewise with Levert, I don't feel any risk in hurting our tank with getting them. WE can play them limited minutes, we can sit on back to backs, theres a lot of teams that do this. but the reason is just getting the assets.

    We didn't only get KPJ by trading allen. KPJ hadn't played a minute this season...he was already in the dog house, and lets not forget he was kicked off his hs team, college team before this...he could've just been brewing ready for a blow up either way. Maybe stone created a relationship with them so he was able to get his foot in the door first? great, but still speculation, and whose to say theres no other way? I'd rather keep allen, or trade him even for ANYTHING better than the bucks pick and give a full 2nd or two rather than the protected we had to give up kpj. Once agian, i feel this is just moving the goal post let alone that trade was entirely indepndent and seperate and different time than the allen/cavs trade.
    -Imean you just said this isn't planned but then pretended like we traded allen with knowing we would get kpj...as if stone planned out KPJ was going to throw food at the GM bc he lost his locker...its a reach.

    Yes, I do get what an asset is.
    Allen was on his last year of his rookie contract, we could've A flpped him but waited for something better tahn the bucks pick, we could've sigend and traded him, we could've even signed him and traded him next year. but he worth more than the bucks pick.

    Asset is like what the suns did to our plyers. They signed Ariza when we wouldn't...they traded him for Kelly oubre than year, they took kelly oubres contract and rubio the next year and got chris paul...they kept hte asset alive, had patience, and the league gave them a gem. They were in the finals and I bet they don't regret it though people here were clamoring to get rid of ariza at that price not understanding its not about him, its the asset/salary that gives us flexiblity too

    So I just don't agree with your asertion that LEvert and Allen are some game changers that while allen led his team close to ours, levert played well/injured but had a playoff team around him with Sabonis/Turner/Brogdon and he helped, but you take him on our team...we're still terrible, we just didn't have it and levert wasnt going to lead us to the playoffs, he never has, but both of them ARE better trade assets than what we got.

    And yea, as I 've said I like green, i like our directions, I love stone's ability to pick in the draft, but simply put we could've done way better adn the reason we didn't isn't because of stone. its because of a financial mandate that anyone whose looking at our moves can see we've been doing since tilman became the owner.
     
  8. DonatelloLimestone

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    I think its a mental block

    If he is shooting with the wrong hand, I may start shooting with the wrong hand here

    Will he get over the mental block? Thats the 37 million dollar question. But I just don't agree with your premise...why can't you compare him to Green? Basiclaly saying that green's value in another team may nto be that much, he may even be useless or just a D only player in many places.
    Just like Gobert is not a scorer,e hes an elite defender and a max artist...Ben is the perimiter version. He is without a doubt elite on Defense and a disrupter...very few guys have tha size, speed, combo he does and the agression and timing. ..if hes lazy and not committed to hoops, why would he become a better defender the least celerbated part publicly each year.

    And I agree that Embiid is a beast and thats why any team who has Embiid has to build around him. I'll never compare him to olajuwon, but I get what you mean and hes a force. The team is not ideal for simmons.

    but once again, simply what I believer that a guy whose elite at every single category with teh right coach and team can be special. I'm not writing off a 25 year old kid whose done all star level things that no one else has. I'm simply saying I still think the jury is still out and people respond to fast. I get he wasn't right for us, but the narrative on Ben has gotten hyperbolic
     
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  9. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    Allen at an average of $20mm is fine but it isn't some great deal either for what he does. You can get 90% of his production at half that. He's not fetching some great trade bounty. Other teams could have jumped in and given us more than Cleveland did if they wanted him. And it was dumb luck, but as noted plenty of times on here, we got KPJ indirectly because of the Cleveland part of the trade. KPJ and a first is drastically better than Allen headed into RFA ready to cash in at $20 million per year.

    Oladipo over Levert ended up being the wrong call and Levert could probably fetch a late first. But that really isn't all that much better than the right to swap BKN's pick with Miami's next year.

    Philly's two picks were supposedly pretty highly protected. The chicken littles can talk about our BKN picks and say "those picks are going to be late anyways" but there's a reason no one really likes to give unprotected picks out into the future. If Morey had been willing to do that he'd probably have Harden. The Warriors went from having one of the best teams in NBA history and looked en route to another title to the #2 pick and #14 pick the next two seasons.
     
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  10. D-rock

    D-rock Member

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    No one is claiming that.

    Reading is fundamental.

    Flipping Harden for Simmons would have included at least 2 picks, 2 pick swaps and players IN ADDITION TO SIMMONS.

    THEN you flip Simmons and other players for additional package of picks and pick swaps.

    That's at least the equivalent of the Nets package but the picks would be higher because they would not ALL be Nets FRP which would be at BOTTOM of the draft for YEARS.

    That said, so tired of arguing this topic, especially with posters who never understood the terms of the trades.
     
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  11. Francis3422

    Francis3422 Member

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    We have no idea on the years and protections that we would have gotten from Philly or wherever we flipped Simmons. Im sure we looked into it (at least) and opted to go with a 7 year spread where they are all unprotected.
     
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  12. DonatelloLimestone

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    I agree with you on that, its not some spectacular deal, but it is fair. And the contracts are going up so Allens contract will be fine and more than tradeable. on top of that hes showing hints of developing a corner 3 which he would then become that much more vauable.
    i don't think so, we see lopsidede trades all the time. We saw what kpj went for, we saw what harden went for. there are always a lot of variables in a players trade value especialyl at speciic given time since Allen was just a part of the trade. But i suppose i just disagree with that premise that we got kpj bc of that trade, to me its not certain we wouldnt have a shot at him without that trade. but people here pretend like we planned for him to throw a fit and throw food at it. it was entirely unpredictable so you don't make that trade with this in mind, it was a crap shoot the guy threw food at his GM.

    Levert could easly get a late first...landry shamet just got a first, but yea thats at the very least when oladipo got way less than that...not to mentioned we once again just targeted expxiring and we all loved kelly, avery is a solid vet who we had a team option.

    i geuss with philly none of us relaly will know what went down until daryl starts talking to the 30for30 about rockets small ball and the burned down. I do agree that it sounds like morey to put protections at the sme time he knows hardens value...if he didn't up his offer he screwed up, if its true tht we just wouldnt do the trade with him then theres still an argument to or not to do it as we're doing. so all in all it worked out ok for us, we got direction and picks so that feels good
     
  13. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    I read your post which said "Simmons would have given the Rockets a much greater return" and responded to that. You didn't say "The Sixers package..." If I missed that was part of a larger back and forth then sorry for the confusion.

    And what are you talking about that people didn't understand the terms of the trades? Where is the definitive trade that was offered? If you find a tweet from Shams or Woj saying we were offered Simmons plus two unprotected picks and swaps then I'll retract to an extent. Credible reporters like Lowe say it's impossible to definitively recreate trade talks. We were pretty clearly offered Simmons, Thybulle and draft capital per Shams and others. "Draft capital" can mean a lot.

    For me the most frustrating part about arguing Simmons value and that we could have flipped him for this bounty is that if any team like the Kings, Bulls, Twolves, or whoever would be thrilled about the opportunity to get Simmons is that any team could have tried to get in the middle of a trade between us and the Sixers with a package more built around draft capital/young players. I don't remember seeing a single rumor about that. And his value has dramatically gone down since then.

    It's telling that a guy like MPJ (who is who I really wanted for what it's worth) supposedly wasn't available in a Harden trade and Simmons was.

    I always liked a package shorting the Nets future a little better than a Simmons package for where we were at in the rebuild but I would have been totally fine with a package largely based on Simmons' value because I thought he was a potential cornerstone, albeit a very flawed one. I was wrong about that. I don't see how anyone could want to build around him now. He seems more like a Draymond to complement a great team but you also can't trust him at all like Draymond in the playoffs so I honestly don't really know how to look at him in terms of team building. I don't understand why it's hard for some to let that go and be glad our FO didn't view him that highly.
     
    #1513 ChillyPete32, Aug 9, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  14. palmsnbananas

    palmsnbananas Member

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    We were good
    Then we sucked

    You guys should be glad we fielded the worst possible team last year and got the 2nd pick. Regardless of how it came about.
     
  15. Denovo

    Denovo Member

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    Y’all still debating this Ben Simmons/Jarrett
    Allen bull ****? Lol
     
  16. DonatelloLimestone

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    would've loved MPJ too, but thats just the fit. Denver is going all in, trading for gordon and they have their PG in Jokic. taking the ball out of his hands for harden may not be most optimal or efficient for either one of them, bu t I coudl see why they went with their rookie contract scorer capable of dropping 20 and getting boards he compliments Jokic great.
    Trades are just so much on timing though, nba is not an efficient business. Its more like a bunch of mom and pops rather than some market where everyoen puts their best offer and you choose. There are relationships and all types of ways these thigs go through. And we also don't know if its a tilman being pissed at morey, reports show les guaranteed his and tad's contracts os now tilman has to pay them both. so doesn't seem far fetched the guy who lowered hardens value by leaking all sorts of thigns only the franchise could know including offering him 100 million might not be the brightest with his PR intuition.
     
  17. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    If we'd held on to Allen maybe we could have timed it right and gotten two late picks instead of one. But I don't think that's certain. I agree we can't say "What a master move by Stone predicting KPJ would get pissed when Prince got his locker." My main thing is I just don't think it's worth getting hung up too much on the Allen part of it since it all worked out well, even if there was some luck, and I don't think the value of a 2022 unprotected Milwaukee pick was that out of whack vs keeping Allen headed into RFA and taking on Prince's deal (it is what it is with the luxury tax).

    Similar deal with Levert. I liked and agreed with gambling on an Oladipo bounce back as more of a HR swing than getting an inefficient volume scorer on a reasonable, but not incredible value, deal. But Stone and I were both wrong. However, there's a reasonable chance Oladipo means we move from pick 28-30 to pick 19-21 or so next year. The cost to do that on draft night is usually a future lottery-ish protected pick, so I don't think getting a late pick for Levert would be all that more valuable than the Miami swap right. It goes on Stone's report card, but I don't think it's a huge whiff in terms of impact.
     
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  18. ChillyPete32

    ChillyPete32 Member

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    I agree with you on that completely. That's why I find the rebuttal that we should have traded for Simmons as an "asset" that's as a certainty much more valuable than the Nets package rather than someone we want to keep as part of our rebuild frustrating. Simmons might have come here and played great and maybe we can flip him for a pick/piece that's more of a sure thing and works better with our roster. Maybe his flaws show themselves here too (playing with John Wall...) and there's very little market for him when we want to realize on the asset. There's not some intrinsic value that "Simmons is worth X" we could have counted on down the road when trying to trade him.

    And after seeing what happened to him in the playoffs I really don't understand why anyone is hung up on us not getting him.
     
  19. roslolian

    roslolian Member

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    Allen is a walking double double, Levert is a decent player. Thats why they are considered Assets, correct? Do assets help you win more or lose more? Do the Rox needed to lose more or win more to get Jalen Green? You are saying Allen ans Levert wouldnt interfere with the tank but thats just speculation right? Part of the reason we lost so many games is we had 6'6 PJ Tucker at center, if we had Allen and PJ Tucker together thatd be crazy good on defense. OTH replace Dipo who missed a ton of games and shot 30% from the field with a decent 2 way player like Levert. These 2 arent floor raisers but they are gonna make you win more games which you dont want. Allen is in a contract year same with PJ Tucker. Sitting him down for no reason is just asking him to file grievance with the Rox.

    We dont need to reach playoffs to lose our pick going out of top 3 is enough to lost our pick. OKc owned swap rights to our pick you just cant seem to grasp that.

    Just purely from a cost benefit analysis, getting 1-2 more low picks is not worth lessening your chance to get Jaylen Green and KPJ. Speaking of KPJ, the Cavs traded FOUR second round picks to get him a year ago, and when he was on the court he played great. If he hadnt thrown a tantrum the Cavs wont trade him for a protected 2nd round pick just a year later. It would take 1st round picks or multiple 2nd round picks to get him so you come away net from whatever assets you get from Allen and Levert.

    I know you are trying to say we could have kept the Green pick and also found some way to get KPJ on the cheap while keeping Levert and Allen as asset stash. But thats all baseless speculation on your part, you arent an insider you dont have a clear picture on what happens behind the scenes. Maybe they could or maybe its impossible, its all speculation you cant blame someone purely on what if scenario with no evidence. What if the only reason Rox got KPJ is the Cavs and Rox FO built a relationship thanks to Allen trade? If they kept Allen the two FO would never have talked and some other team like OKC would have snagged KPJ. Its all speculation you dont know how that situation transpired so you cant say they can still do X while keeping Y. You're assuming everything but somehow blaming the Rox FO as if all your assumptions are correct. What if the only way to get KPJ and Green is what transpired and any other event wouldnt result in both KPJ and Green? You dont know so you shoulfnt really monday quarterback.

    What we know as FACT is we got KPJ and Green because Stone traded away Allen and Levert. Your proposed asset idea messes or threatens that outcome and isnt worth it just to get a couple more low frps.
     
    #1519 roslolian, Aug 9, 2021
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2021
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  20. Icehouse

    Icehouse Contributing Member

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    There's not a team that would've given 4 unprotected picks and swaps for Simmons then.
     
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