Nice Racism

The issue I have with the far left is that they treat minorities, especially black people, as special needs. Minorities need fairness, not condescending charity.

 

How so?

 

I'm not sure about this. I think it's more of a they support minority causes as a way to avoid facing their own biases - I support these causes at the group level so clearly I am not a racist kinda of thing - even though they probably have a lot of biases against minorities they are not aware of. And let me state this - these biases are subtle - of the implicit type - things that many on the right consider not true racism.

The great irony of implicit bias is that liberals are the ones most guilty of it, it just doesn't have the deadly effects that comes with policing. And implicit bias is easier to break through than other forms of racism on an individual level.

Conservatives are more openly biased in my opinion.

 

I'm not giving conservatives a pass. I think at worst, they are white supremacists, and at best unempathetic. I was just stating how treating a group with kids gloves makes racism worse because you are implying they are inferior is some way.

 

I don't have a list of all the people you have heard of before. Have you heard of Robyn DiAngelo? Ibram X. Kendi?

I am saying 80% of outcomes are the result of 20% of causes in both good and bad ways. So 20% of people are the cause of 80% of racism, but 20% of people are also the cause of 80% of technological advancement, or feeding the hungry, or anything else according to the pareto principal (aka the 80/20 rule). Furthermore, that the 20% of causes that cause 80% of racism are not segregated by race, so quoting the 80/20 rule is not evidence that non-white racists are not part of the 20% that causes 80% of the problems of racism.

Not really. You said that other countries have acknowledged their past and you can learn about it in museums. America has also acknowledged its past and you can learn about it in museums. It is a direct refutation of your point.

We have something called the First Amendment that prohibits state actors from criminalizing speech on the basis of viewpoint. Germany has no such law and it is a crime there to have Nazi symbols. It cannot be a crime here to have the confederate flag (or more accurately the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia).

In addition to the law, as cited above, there are more nuanced views of the civil war. For example, you call the flag a symbol or treason and hatred, but the CSA would have been content to be a separate nation and not have a war. There was also no constitutional basis for disallowing secession. From a legal perspective, it is quite arguable that there was no treason, and it was the Union that fought a war of aggression to force reunification (similar to the invasion of South Vietnam by the Communist North Vietnam or the same in Korea.

Generally speaking, there is no such nuance to Nazi Germany. Clearly they fought a war of aggression against most of Europe and committed internal genocides. There is no historical support for Nazi Germany being the victim of invasion by France and Poland. The closest anyone comes to that is talking about the harsh armistice agreement at the conclusion of World War I.

Ultimately, according to at least some survey data, about 10% of the populous views the flag positively, 30% negatively, and 60% have no strong response to it. As long as that 60% don't really care about the issue, it is going to be tolerated.

 

Just looked up Ibram X. Kendi. Can't find a quote where he said all white people are racist. Apparently, he said something controversial and he responded that his comments were taken out of context and expressely said all white people are NOT racist.

So again, please show me where a notable person that actively represents a core element of progressives that says, and stands by it, that all white people are racist. I's NOT a mainstream position.

I'll concede I didn't articulate myself very well. My point is, as it relates to matters of systemic racism, white people represent a vast majority of the problem. Note: That does NOT mean that ALL white people are the problem.

You missed the point. The point isn't that the history is taught in museums, sometimes. The point is that functionally speaking, the history can ONLY be found in educational settings.

I support your right to wave a confederate flag. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right.

So your argument is that secession wasn't explicitly illegal, therefore it was ok for the south to throw a temper tantrum, take their ball, and go home?

mmkay.

Again, just because it's legal, doesn't make it right. Throw all your legal justification you want but it comes down to core values:

Our core US value is based on:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal
-Declaration of Independence

Confederate core value is:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner-stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition.
-Cornerstone Speech

Hide behind your leagalese all you want. It flatly comes down to intent behind the law. It needs to be acknowledged ...by all US Citizens.

Agreed. ...and that is my point.

Kid gloves? Jesus. Then stop justifying the behavior behind overt systemic racism. Jim Crow was overt. That mindset persists today. Why is that hard for conservatives to say out loud? It really shouldn't be that hard.

 

I don't think you have to think all white people are racist to be considered progressive.

Though many, if not all progressives believe or have a very strong hunch that the system rich white Americans made is inherently racist.

Subtle difference I guess, but one that became much clearer since 2016 with certain members of the establishment backing up and covering for their leader.

 

Again, I don't think it's treating them with kid gloves - minorities take a lot of **** in the workplace from liberals and conservatives. Just because liberals are more likely to support something like BLM or rally behind these types of causes doesn't mean they are treating them with kid gloves.

For example, you don't see a lot of white women talking about how black women get even paid less than them. It's always in relation to (white) men. When there is advocacy for diversity, it's not coming at a sacrifice of talent. The minorities I have worked with in my field have to be MORE talented than their white counterparts to be seen as just equal. In other words, it's the opposite of kid gloves

 

So again, what's your point? If I want to know some random person's opinion from the internet, I can go find it myself.

Do you want to have a discussion or do you want sound bites?

 

That's because the system IS inherently racist. All you need to do is look at the results. Who has the most wealth? Who is on death row? The numbers are inescapable.

...and the history of our country paints a very clear story of how that all began.

 

Again those are legit discriminatory practices. I'm not arguing that discrimination doesn't happen and they don't need to be addressed.

I'm talking about excusing shitty behavior like rioting and looting. I've had "woke" friends literally tell me that looting small businesses owned by other minorities during the protests was justified and made excuses for them. They said stuff like "if you were had to go through what they went through, you would loot and light stuff on fire also"

 

Squirrel. One observation is notice you didn't bother to mention the rioting and looting and murdering on Jan 6 and other right-wing events.

Look, stop looking at symptoms you see in front of you. That is intellectually lazy. No doctor would tell you to simply put some lotion on that discoloration on your skin. You need to take a deeper look at the root causes.

 

I don't condone that either. I think those guys were should be tried for treason just like Trump. I think Trump should go to prison for the rest of his life and maybe even be executed. Why are you diverting the conversation? The topic of this thread is about "Nice Racism".

 

#1: Show me where Robin DeAngelo said ALL white people are racist because that was the topic of conversation that you jumped in on.
#2: You didn't quote Robin DiAngelo. You just dropped in random quotes from other people. If you want to discuss Robin DiAngelo, as the OG, why don't you try staying on topic?
#3: You didn't actually say anything, as usual. You just drop little sound bites and exit.

 

Totally agree. I'm pretty sure the other side agrees, albiet privately.

They just don't like the reckoning you can't fight unfairness with undoing the unfairness... That's unfair to the original recipients and totally unAmerican!

And they don't like their kids learning how diabolical and cruel their generational community acted in order for them to feel successful and mighty today.

I mean there will still be a reckoning, though our coffers are being pilfered since Bush and millennials seem too self absorbed or unwilling to wrest control from parasitic, 8% interest bearing, equity holding Boomers.

 

There is soooooo much wrong. It isn't really helpful to point to one spoiled item on the grocery store shelf and say the whole store is rotten. That's a massive oversimplification.

Is looting bad? Yes. Was what the police did bad? Yes. Was the media coverage bad? Yes. Were the events that led up to the looting bad? Yes. Were the events that happened since the looting bad? Yes.

 

The forum is called "Debate & Discussion".

It's not called "Cut & Paste"